View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #11011
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    Some answers to SD critics - Part 2

    Uniforms: If you are not a monk living in a temple, wearing that clothing would be inappropriate, maybe even disrepectful, and definitely insincere. Look at the old photos of traditional kung fu practitioners in the East -- they don't wear what we now call "kung fu uniforms." They wear whatever they have on that is comfortable. And most who practice CMA agree that although so-called "kung fu uniforms" look really cool and make those students feel like "kung fu" practioners, they are not rugged, and are not practical, and didn't they come more from movies than real martial arts schools anyway? Didn't many schools, outside of the temples, that wanted a uniform, just wear loose pants, and a t-shirt, and something tied around the waist? Traditional gi's are rugged, and are practical. Why do some MMA's still wear them, even in the ring? I saw a match recently where a tradionalist and former champion and current contender (non-UFC) wore a gi in a ring match, and used the sleeve and collar to choke out the opponent. It improves grip and friction. If we were to line up all the possible choices for a uniform for a school where discipline and practicality and uniformity was important, which one would be anyone's first choice, if indeed fighting, not appearance, were important? But those who want to criticize GGM ICM, or later GMT, for making that choice, although doing so creates an appearnce of modern notions of non-TCMA, and at the same time wants to discredit the combative benefits and claims of SD, is hypocritical.

    Japanese rankings? Isn't that a minor adaptation of the most meaningless, but also most obvious, way to avoid looking like a pure Chinese system, if one was wanting to avoid that pure appearance? And isn't that also a common factor in schools that were run to be business and support the instructor? Isn't that also a convenient, even if not tradional Chinese kung fu, way of keeping track of a student's progress, and also to set future goals? When I tested, I did so for one reason: not to have another stripe on my belt, but to force myself to progress to that goal: being confident enough in that material to perform it under pressure, in front of others who probably knew it better than I did, and not just to have them say it was okay, but to know myself that it is up to my standards.

    Claiming some of the material is "made up" by GMT, or even GGM ICM. If one wants a historical martial art that has not changed ever since it was created, one also needs a time machine. There is no such thing today. Isn't TKD a "creation" to serve the popular needs, derived from tang soo do and/or moo duk kwan? Wasn't judo invented as a "gentler way" from the more brutal ju jitsu? We all know how jeet kune do came about -- purely "made up." Is all that therefore illegitimate? Wasn't every style today "made up" from something else? How many traditional Japanese Karate styles were just "made up" or derived from something else -- including Goju-ryu? I would hope my teacher is astute enough to be able to develop new techniques and methods, including forms, to meet my needs, and if I have a teacher that I don't think is good enough to do that -- I need a new teacher.

    And as for thinking GMT must be making most of it up because he uses notes or books to prepare for class, or has deviations from one class to the next. First, I recall I have in the past "made up" forms for myself. I couldn't remember them at all not long after, unless I practiced nothing but that, unlike the forms I was trained and taught by others, which if I've forgotten, I can go back and look at notes, or keep working at, they do come back to me. Recently with such help, I have recovered material I first learned decades ago, and can now do like it was yesterday (mentally at least). I teach an evening class (nothing to do with martial arts) at a local branch of a university, have been since 1987, and on a subject that I make a living doing every day. I still get my lecture notes, tests, other teaching material out, every time I teach every session of the ten-week class, and still have variations on how I teach it from sesson to session. So what?

    900 forms. I think the number comes from the list -- that I hear other schools have plagiarized for their websites -- of systems, and the forms per system (18 broadswords, 7 of this, 12 of that -- and add them all up). 108 are the short forms. Many are VERY short. Doesn't for example the five element fists, 12 animals, linking set, and two man set, of Hsing-Ie count as 19 of them? Many are not so short, but most people who criticize based only on the number assume it is literally 900 long form sets, and that is not true.

    It is not outside the realm of possibility that GMT focused on his specialty (his "major"), and at the same time was taught other forms. I've learned the basic movements of a new form in 30 minutes, and then go on to practice and refine it according to my way. He was with GGM ICM for hours per day, almost every day, for many years. He probably was taught by every one of the Masters at that school. He could learn and memorize a form, work on it, and go to another one, maybe not go back to the old ones again, maybe yes. He is not a dummy. He has a degree in engineering, which he achieved after first coming to a foreign country, no easy feat. He is known to be fluent in several languages. He has a black belt in judo. Why couldn't he learn more than I can learn -- or more than "you" think you could accomplish? If he was no better than me, why do I want him to teach me? I've told critics more than once, once you think you are good enought to critique your own teacher, you need a new teacher.

    In my career I know more about the stuff I do most and more often, but can still do the stuff I do less regularly. I might know more about the stuff I've done more than a lot of people, and less about the stuff others do more than I do, but I still know it and can pass it on to others. And they might get better at it than I ever was. GOOD. That is what a teacher hopes will happen.

    TO BE CONTINUED
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  2. #11012
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    dude get with the program where on aabout burger king and prostituiton and how japanese people came from china and how everything is borreder but only if you truly beleive it
    You're wrong. It's only "boreder" if you truly Translate it.

  3. #11013
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    you dotn want to test me fellas
    im like a bipolar squirrel on viagra when i get backed into a corner and i dont want to be


    word to the wise

    i dont mess...

  4. #11014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    You're wrong. It's only "boreder" if you truly Translate it.
    buts its onlt translate it if your only a marsupial


    now whos wrong

  5. #11015
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    Some answers to SD Critics - Part 3

    Using the word "karate" in the school description. Place yourself coming to the U.S. in the early to mid 60's. Don't tell me anyone outside of Asia knew what "kung fu" was. GMT was not even taught in a traditonal Chinese martial arts setting in China, no wonder he wasn't tied up with looking like a TCMA establishment. I recall the scene in "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" of the "traditional" Chinese masters who forbid Bruce Lee from teaching Westerners. That is representative of a CMA hierarchy that GMT was not part of, having learned and trained "in exile" so to speak, with other "exiles" removed from those trappings and expectations.

    Many people were starting to know what "karate" -- a very generic term --was about. They knew it to mean, "some kind of Asian" -- or the more pejoriative "Oriental" -- "fighting styles." What once was called "Chinese boxing." If one is going to start a school and make a living, call it something someone will recognize. If as people have said, that an attempt was made to make people think it was Temple Shaolin -- why do that, in the early 60's? Who in the early to mid 60's in the U.S. -- much less in Central Ky. -- would even know what that was? And IF he were wanting to exploit Shaolin, then THE WAY to do it would be to call it that right from the start. But it wasn't purely traditional Shaolin, in the Temple sense, and so it wasn't called that. It was called what it could be generically described as in the 60's using terms we could understand -- "karate," or Asian martial arts (synonymous at the time), from a Shaolin perspective and influence. The "Shaolin Way," following on other "Do" terminology more familiar. I doubt "kung fu" was even used at all at the time, but I could be wrong. Why doesn't that make sense? What else should a new venture in Central Kentucky in the 60's have been called,that would have made more sense?

    SD teaches material also from outside the Temple. Wasn't historically the various temples also interested in learning about outside stlyes and practices? If a Shaolin priest were out and saw someone practicing something that was new, should they ignore it with their nose in the air -- "thats not from our temple therefore it can't be any good" -- or with an open mind consider it and learn from it. If GGM ICM, or GMT, actually learned something good, like Hsing Ie, Pa Kua, Tai Chi, Northern this or Southern that, and pass it on within their teachings, why is that bad?

    If in fact I were to advertise, "I teach nothing but pure, unadulterated, untouched, INSERT WHATEVER," and then throw something completely different and unrelated, that is one thing. That is not the case, except I think from the unfortunate few who themselves don't understand the connection between "Shaolin" and material from outside the Temple per se, and put that misunderstanding in writing. People who have posted here, have "kung fu" schools, and also do cardio kickboxing, tai chi, yoga, some MMA, etc. So what? I can go to a steakhouse and my kids can get hamburgers at the same time.

    And I suspect GMT does not personally draft the material printed in his name, and maybe even doesn't review texts others print in his name. He's got other things to do. Too bad, and I wish others would be more careful in passing off their words as his. But I remember during a sparring class taught by GMT's brother, practicing for an upcoming tournament, we spent some time on ground fighting. That week later in class, elsewhere, my teacher asked me to take some of the younger students aside who were interested in participating in the tournament, and have some sparring practice. I did so, and also had them do some of the ground fighting as I did the week before. My teacher became somewhat upset, not wanting that, thinking it was too soon for those younger students to worry about that, and just wanted them drilled on stand up. I was teaching in his name, while he did something else with some other students, and although I had all good intentions, but misunderstanding what he wanted. My bad, not his.

    SD material doesn't "look like" other TCMA. I've trained in SD since the mid 70's. I've also trained in other stuff, and more than one other TCMA (very briefly in eagle claw, non-SD Shaolin Leaopard, Hung Gar), and at other schools. I've searched the internet for other persons', non-SD, Pa Kua, Hsing Ie, tai chi, etc. I've read other teacher's books. I've seen movies. I've visited other kung fu, TKD, and Karate schools. There are differences, but I have also been amazed at some of the similarity. I've seen other material that is amazingly similar, and in details as well. I've seen similar titles, similar terminology, even similar texts. I've also seen dissimilar. Find me anything developed on different paths that is identical. It doesn't exist. Yet when something similar does come up, it must have been copied by SD - not the other way around. When something is not the same, it proves its made up.

    And to some extent, there are different ways to get to the same place, but there might also be one BEST way to, for example, throw a straight punch, place a front kick, attack with a straight sword. It doesn't bother me that SD might want to do it this way, even in the context of Tiger, Mantis, or whatever, even if someone who claims pure Tiger or Mantis might do it another way, but also teach how to do it in other ways. To each his own. How do you know what is good for you, if you are only exposed to one thing?

    But I've been to a very traditional non-SD CMA school. I spent a year at a Tien Shien Pai school, visited by the proclaimed 34th generation GM, or whatever, direct lineage to this and that, and the methods and material and postures and mechanics, etc., were just not that materially different from SD. The introductory Hsing Ie - very similar. Chi kung training: very similar. Basic empty hand forms: very similar. Two man sets, very similar. I spent a year there, and in addition to empty hand forms also did short stick, broadsword, introductory chi kung/breathing meditation, very similar curriculum as SD.

    The portrayals of SD material that is most criticized, and more defective, is the practitioner, not the material. That is also bad on the practitioner, not GMT. What is he supposed to do, when something he has taught out is messed up, misrepresented, or just badly done by someone. Tell them to stop practicing? Tell them to forget they know him? Forget they learned any of it? Forbid them to demo it, unless they pass a certain grade? Does anyone think that is possible, much less practical.

    TO BE CONTINUED
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  6. #11016
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    oh and to the guy who did the eassy kung fu masters didnt teach for aliving or advertise for that matter in fact because of the anti chinese hate in indonesia they would have had to teach secretly thus making the use ofr all the names etc etc that are japanese useless


    god im so boredering niging right now

  7. #11017
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    i dont mess...
    But you wear rubber pants, right?

    We don't judge. I promise. We're here for your support. We're like your own emotional rubber pants.

  8. #11018
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    Some answers to SD critics - Part 4

    Here's an idea: Lets say someone who thinks they know about martial arts, maybe they do, maybe they don't (maybe they are really good at dancing or posing for pictures), goes to a school for awhile, and thinks the teachers there are no good and he/she can beat up all their black belts. Then he starts telling others how bad that entire style is, and anyone who has anything to do with it, and "spits" on it all. Shouldn't we go back to every martial arts instructor that person has ever had, and "spit" on him/her, and their entire school and every student they have ever had, because it is obviously that instructor's fault for turning out, and permitting to exist, any student who claims to know so much from them, but presents themself so arrogantly, so disrespectfully, and, as they said in "Shogun," "with the manners of a pig." That instructor shoud be ashamed for being associated with one who shows so little honor and respect, for anyone, deserving or not. That instructor obviously tolerates disrespect, encourages the insulting tongue, invites the provoking blow, and has no more of a concept of bushido, or honor and respect in general, than any clown off the street.

    All I know, is others here have spoken highly of many of you, such as YS, MK, JP, GT, BQ, KC, TTM, and others whose monikers escape me. I don't know any of you, but you have for the most part, with few isolated exceptions, conducted yourselves with dignity and honor, and have earned the respect of others here and elsewhere. That is good enough for me. On the other hand, there are others that no one, other than himself, speaks highly of, and his words speak for themselves. That says something, too.

    I recently told a good freind, a good martial artist that I have learned much from, but who was never interested in testing past 1st black -- but knows more from independent study and research than many who "outrank" him -- my take on teaching stuff to people who don't appreciate it and can't do it. It is better to teach the material to many, knowing that few will take it to heart, than to not teach it at all. The seed may indeed fall on barren minds, but also some will bear fruit.

    And in a letter of mine that was published in Kung Fu Magazine in the early 80's, I also said, in response to a critic of SD (it goes back that far and more), get over this stuff.If you go to a school you are not happy with, by all means find another one. It is a style, many like it and learn from it and benefit from it, and it has its basis in stuff that works. Many don't, or don't understand, or don't want to. Many just feed themselves by criticizing others. It is easier to criticize than to hold one's tongue, to retain an open mind, to just "live and let live." How about just keep practicing, and keep learning, do more asking questions than giving answers no one has asked for; and just be quiet about what others do?

    I feel much better now that I got this off my chest. LET THE FLAMING BEGIN!

    THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND COULD BE ENTIRELY WRONG. I SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND NOT FOR GMT, ANY OF HIS INSTRUCTORS OR STUDENTS OR SCHOOLS OR MASTERS.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  9. #11019
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    oh and to the guy who did the eassy kung fu masters didnt teach for aliving or advertise for that matter in fact because of the anti chinese hate in indonesia they would have had to teach secretly thus making the use ofr all the names etc etc that are japanese useless
    I agree 100%.


    *whisper to the rest of the SD forum* Dude, did you understand that? Me neither....oh well. Just nod your head. It's not cool to laugh at REderobs.*

  10. #11020
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    id rather see you guys as my emotional jock strap here to hoist my balls high

  11. #11021
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    see even wookie admits it your master has spoken sd students

    oh and explain how its possible to know nine hundred forms?

  12. #11022
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    id rather see you guys as my emotional jock strap here to hoist my balls high
    If it helps you to think of the raping you'll get in the mental ward from the guards as "an emotional jock strap there to hoist your balls high," that's cool. Remember....go to your happy place.

    But unfortunately, we won't be going with you. You won't see us again until you get out.

  13. #11023
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    and remember people even a short form has to be reviewd over and over and over again just because its easy dosnt mean youll be able to learn another one from your master
    lOok at the sanchin form in karate for example super easy buT they had you work on it for years until you were taught ANYTHING ELSE

    108 short forms would still take a gigantic time to learn not to mentionMASTER remember theres a difference between the two

    and thats 108 what about the rest of the forms?

  14. #11024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    If it helps you to think of the raping you'll get in the mental ward from the guards as "an emotional jock strap there to hoist your balls high," that's cool. Remember....go to your happy place.

    But unfortunately, we won't be going with you. You won't see us again until you get out.
    but at least ill have some cool tatoos and a rock hard body from the weight room

  15. #11025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    Wao is my little brother. Stop talking crap about him.
    uh oh here that wookie hes steppin to you

    you just going to sit there like france and take it?

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