Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[goju]

novembers fine for me

[Old Noob]

oh and most important dont expect people to take you seriously when your running around calling yourself a noob lol

To beat one of your old, tired drums, picking on someone's user name is something people do when they can't refute the substance of their comments. Isn't that your defense when people point out that, though you're in your twenties, you have the reading comprehension and spelling capabilities of my five-year-old? Scratch that. I'm insulting my five-year-old when I say that.

However, since you mentioned it, I chose the name because I had an extended period of time out of the martial arts and am, therefore, new to it again. Furthermore, I think one can study pretty much his entire life and still have much to learn. In that sense, I think most folks are noobs. Finally, I chose it because its humble and a bit self-deprecating. You wouldn't know anything about that.

As for being taken seriously, I have to disagree with you. While I am probably the most junior SD person on this board, I'm here to learn about my art. I know I don't have much to offer, by way of input on our art, to the guys who've been around it for longer than I have, so I offer them my respect. They seem to give it in return and take my questions as serious inquiry rather than mischevious provocations.

You're a child Goju. We're playing with you because we're bored. Your rants are no different than a thousand other hotheads who troll these boards acting like some kind of bad a$$. We've seen you before. We'll see you again. At the end of the day, when your body starts to go and you're an old man like we are, you'll have to look around and see what you have to fall back on. Unless you change things, that will be an illiterate, crotchety old ******* with nobody around who has any interest in taking care of you. Karma is a ***** like that.

Good luck kid.

[OldandUsed]

Amen to that!

[Judge Pen]

so whats on the menue today? you guys still gonna try to pull info about goju off the net and say you know more than me and morio higaonna? lol or is it back to sd?

Goju, I didn't say that I knew more about your art than anyone else. But I did ask some questions that someone who claims to have learned 1/2 of the material would know and you were pretty ignorant. I pointed out the irony in that since you came here to bash SD based, in large part, on historical inconsistencies. Your inability to describe fundamental concepts about your art (when you have not shown you can do so). That makes you a hypocrite. That's not a personal attack its an obervation on the way you have conducted yourself here.

Let me put it this way, this thread is full of people that are as criticial of SD as you are; however, they are not even coming to your aid here--doesn't that say something. Usually the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but no one is really even echoing what you are saying.

I have no problem with people being critical of my art. MK, MonkeySlap/Mas Judt and many others have helped me better understand their arguments because they are well thought out, articulate and logically consistent. They have been just as scathing (more so because of the effectivness of their logic). Your manner of arguing actually weakens your positions and you don't even realize it.

[Judge Pen]

Looking at the multiple san he chiens, and then the Tiger/Crane, the similarities are astounding to me, to not come from a common thread somewhere. The San He Chien, not as much, got one has to believe a common ancestor way back. But the Tiger/Crane is amazing, not possibly an accident, not to have come from a common thread, no more than once or twice removed I would think.

Anyone done enough research to know the common source?

Well that's one of the complaints. Most of the research I have looked at have these forms developing outside of the temples. It's apparent that there is an common source. The critic will say it was copied from a book etc. Another more SD friendly explanation would be that Master Ie or one of the other colleagues learned it and passed it along to Sin and Hiang. For those "old timers" out there, has GM The identified any other teacher who taught him a specific form? All I have heard is that he became Ie's private student and all of his material came from Ie (which begs the question of the materials diversity and number). It would be nice to see where Ie (or one of his colleagues) learned that form as that could help trace it back to a common source.

[OldandUsed]

The only time I recall hearing GMT stating he went outside ICM (and his elder uncles) once he started with them was when he pursued Tai Chi Chien/Pa Kua Chang. I do not recall much of what he said on that one other than he had some physical reactions to the training and went he went to ICM to get help, ICM told him that if he had said he wanted that training, that ICM would have shown him. he then went on to get the training from ICM and did not venture out of the family after that. He was fiarly young at the time.

[Judge Pen]

The only time I recall hearing GMT stating he went outside ICM (and his elder uncles) once he started with them was when he pursued Tai Chi Chien/Pa Kua Chang. I do not recall much of what he said on that one other than he had some physical reactions to the training and went he went to ICM to get help, ICM told him that if he had said he wanted that training, that ICM would have shown him. he then went on to get the training from ICM and did not venture out of the family after that. He was fiarly young at the time.

How about any "elder uncles" that he learned specific material from?

[OldandUsed]

I have heard him and Hiang speak of those associated masters that ICM had with him that followed him to Indonesia. While I have heard them referred to by name a few times, I have to admit that I am absolutely horrible at remembering their names. or their specialities. I do remember them as quite diverse as both brothers spoke of the variety of material available, but cannot remember names. This was over 30 years ago and at the time I just treated it as background and was more worried about performing the material. Sorry.

[Baqualin]

How about any "elder uncles" that he learned specific material from?

Each one had their specialty's.....I have the names and what they mainly taught...will try and find it and get it to you....thought I posted that info on here a while ago.
Also there's only one left and he had a stroke...can't remember his name, but I know he only taught Chen Tai Chi in his latter years.
BQ

[Baqualin]

The only time I recall hearing GMT stating he went outside ICM (and his elder uncles) once he started with them was when he pursued Tai Chi Chien/Pa Kua Chang. I do not recall much of what he said on that one other than he had some physical reactions to the training and went he went to ICM to get help, ICM told him that if he had said he wanted that training, that ICM would have shown him. he then went on to get the training from ICM and did not venture out of the family after that. He was fiarly young at the time.

Supposedly he wanted to learn Pa Kua and went outside the school to another Master...who beat him up....after GMIe found out (he was p!ssed of course), he taught him Pa Kua (as old & used said).....then sometime later, GM Sin went back and beat him up pretty seriously.....supposedly the Master vowed to get revenge someday.....the story as I was told when he first taught us Pa Kua.
BQ

[OldandUsed]

That sounds very much the way I heard him tell it when we first were shown Pa Kue at Southland dojo.

[Baqualin]

I could be in Colorado in November KC
Pads what are those ? I should start rolling 50# or 60# instead of 45. for Iron Bone. That tree I was kicking in the back yard died . Need to buy more rocks to bag up for iron fist, where can I buy a chicken??? Ill need my wind to catch Goju KC

Make it before Thanksgiving....I will fresh stuffing for my Turkey
BQ

[Baqualin]

That sounds very much the way I heard him tell it when we first were shown Pa Kue at Southland dojo.

That's when & where it was.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Oh by the way O&U I don't think anyone saw the picture you posted when you first came on here ( the way you attached it)....nice take down shot.....wonder if Cujo would like some of that.

[SDJerry]

The Tiger/Crane forms are a part of Hung Gar and the Tiger/ Crane system. The Tiger / Crane form we do is slightly different . I was told that the one we do came first and then it modified by Hung gar stylist . The creator of this form is supposedly Hong Shi Guan. I might be wrong but this the general concensus.

Tiger Crane is one of the 4 pillars of hung gar which is one of the oldest kungfu styles out there. To my knowledge, this is widely accepted in the TCMA community. I would serisouly question any statement claiming that the SD version came a long first. I know you are just going off what you were told but as a hung gar stylist, I had to say something.