View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #12241
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    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    Like reverse bows where they don't belong. It does drive me crazy when people who have no business doing so make their own changes to material taught by someone far more qualified than they are, for no other reason I can think of but ego, to make themselves stand out. Seems kind of arrogant to me.

    Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it.

    The way I see it, if your form doesn't change, you're probably not improving, and you're probably not learning anything. My forms are my forms. Not GM Sin's. Not my teacher's, not his teacher's. They're mine. Static forms are wushu forms. Great forms, no martial sensibility whatsoever. Just like that Wudang guy who was hitting hte bags. I've seen some dudes who can hit bags pretty **** awesome, but couldn't hit another dude unless he was holding the bags...LOL.

    I was training some wushu/Longfist from a dude, and he did an introductory bow exactly like Chin kung fu hu chien/Chie Chien, but much smoother. Transitioned from the arms to the hips and left knee raised to a cat ("cat" not stressed at present in SD bow) then slide out to bow stance and pull up to natural with hands chambered at sides--1 very fluid motion. So now my bow in those two forms is the same one I did in wushu, lol. Same movements, better body mechanics. Someone called me out on changing the form, and I was like......ok, whatever. (translation: Train your own stuff, get over it). I didn't change the form. I changed, so the form changed. I'm pretty sure forms changed under GM Sin. After training bJJ and a little Judo, you see just how many throws are in the core material--and why it would be helpful to wear a gi if practicing the material by its literal interpretation, since gi's hold up so much better--(but in Shaolin-Tao's defense, gi's do suck for forms, big time).

    Nobody ever trains in a style so to speak. You train yourself. You're your own style. I'm not pure SD. I've seen/practiced w/ tons of dudes. So, I'm not a purist by any means in any style. It's always my interpretation, because it's my body. I'm integrating stand up grappling with tai chi. So it's not pure tai chi, but it is remarkably applicable against non-cooperative opponents. My roundhouse has picked up Muay Thai elements, so it's more of a round kick now. Lands 2X as hard, and better for close-in fighting, since my shin nicely fits in most people's ribs---just the right size. If I want to get in close, I use a common hand-to-ear block I picked up in MMA classes. bEtter for what I'm doing. I added that into some of my monkey movements, since it's the same motion wushu monkey dudes use for monkey antics....only, mine is applicable...L"OL.

    I'm not someone who thinks a form has to look exactly like the application, even though I think the short forms look exactly like the applications. (4-7 look like foot-sweep throws to me, almost straight out of sanshou/judo or jujitsu). My tai chi took on some of hte C.C. Chen aspects I learned. My footwork improved a lot in the little wushu training I did. SD made my stances freakin' great though....but it's footwork does leave something to be desired, at times. My Chen 18 has a little of the bits of Chen 60 I learned elsewhere. I'm sure some SD "purists" would call me out on that, but ****, man. Who cares? If it works better for me, it works better. Sometimes my forms change a little, but then change back. Sometimes my favorite movements change for the better and become something else--at least in my head they do. Nobody has a 100% claim on effectiveness, and SD has plenty of "ineffective theories" IMO. So do most others, by the way.

    I mean....come on. There's a one-handed RoadHouse Patrick Swayze "rip out the throat" maneuver in 3rd bird...LOL. From an underhanded snatch, much less.
    100% effective from that position....I'm thinking no. 100% untrainable, 100% impractical. I still do the "technique", but seriously...LOL.

  2. #12242
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    What you dont think you can snatch someones throut out eagle claw style
    lol

    Isnt that easy?

  3. #12243
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it.

    The way I see it, if your form doesn't change, you're probably not improving, and you're probably not learning anything. My forms are my forms. Not GM Sin's. Not my teacher's, not his teacher's. They're mine. Static forms are wushu forms. Great forms, no martial sensibility whatsoever. Just like that Wudang guy who was hitting hte bags. I've seen some dudes who can hit bags pretty **** awesome, but couldn't hit another dude unless he was holding the bags...LOL.

    I was training some wushu/Longfist from a dude, and he did an introductory bow exactly like Chin kung fu hu chien/Chie Chien, but much smoother. Transitioned from the arms to the hips and left knee raised to a cat ("cat" not stressed at present in SD bow) then slide out to bow stance and pull up to natural with hands chambered at sides--1 very fluid motion. So now my bow in those two forms is the same one I did in wushu, lol. Same movements, better body mechanics. Someone called me out on changing the form, and I was like......ok, whatever. (translation: Train your own stuff, get over it). I didn't change the form. I changed, so the form changed. I'm pretty sure forms changed under GM Sin. After training bJJ and a little Judo, you see just how many throws are in the core material--and why it would be helpful to wear a gi if practicing the material by its literal interpretation, since gi's hold up so much better--(but in Shaolin-Tao's defense, gi's do suck for forms, big time).

    Nobody ever trains in a style so to speak. You train yourself. You're your own style. I'm not pure SD. I've seen/practiced w/ tons of dudes. So, I'm not a purist by any means in any style. It's always my interpretation, because it's my body. I'm integrating stand up grappling with tai chi. So it's not pure tai chi, but it is remarkably applicable against non-cooperative opponents. My roundhouse has picked up Muay Thai elements, so it's more of a round kick now. Lands 2X as hard, and better for close-in fighting, since my shin nicely fits in most people's ribs---just the right size. If I want to get in close, I use a common hand-to-ear block I picked up in MMA classes. bEtter for what I'm doing. I added that into some of my monkey movements, since it's the same motion wushu monkey dudes use for monkey antics....only, mine is applicable...L"OL.

    I'm not someone who thinks a form has to look exactly like the application, even though I think the short forms look exactly like the applications. (4-7 look like foot-sweep throws to me, almost straight out of sanshou/judo or jujitsu). My tai chi took on some of hte C.C. Chen aspects I learned. My footwork improved a lot in the little wushu training I did. SD made my stances freakin' great though....but it's footwork does leave something to be desired, at times. My Chen 18 has a little of the bits of Chen 60 I learned elsewhere. I'm sure some SD "purists" would call me out on that, but ****, man. Who cares? If it works better for me, it works better. Sometimes my forms change a little, but then change back. Sometimes my favorite movements change for the better and become something else--at least in my head they do. Nobody has a 100% claim on effectiveness, and SD has plenty of "ineffective theories" IMO. So do most others, by the way.

    I mean....come on. There's a one-handed RoadHouse Patrick Swayze "rip out the throat" maneuver in 3rd bird...LOL. From an underhanded snatch, much less.
    100% effective from that position....I'm thinking no. 100% untrainable, 100% impractical. I still do the "technique", but seriously...LOL.
    I agree with most of this but, Since when doesnt pure Tai Chi Chuan have grappling / Chin Na in it??

    Its not that SD has ineffective theories in it , it is the individual teachers and students who make SH!T up as they go along!!! I would rather hear someone say "I do not know" rather than some of the stupid @$$ SH!T I have heard people say.

    As for the ripping throat application, that is just one of the infinate possibilities Not the most probable or realistic. Try it as an underhand snatch of a punch instead or a grab of a piece of clothing or another part of the body.

    Funny story......There was this guy who became the instructor /master of one of the schools and he said that his applications was the only one to be taught and that there were basically no other ones besides the ones he said. Most of them were completely impractical and inapplicable against a resisting opponent but because he was an AM 5th BB Everyone followed him blindly and never question his applications.

    I found this funny because his belief was contradictory to the idea that forms, techniques, etc. have multiple applications .

    what might work for one person is not going to work for another.

    This guy was so full of himself.....
    Last edited by tattooedmonk; 06-30-2009 at 12:57 PM.

  4. #12244
    Quote Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
    What you dont think you can snatch someones throut out eagle claw style
    lol

    Isnt that easy?
    Not really. You have to have really strong hands and be willing to do the stretch( of time in prison) if you did.

  5. #12245
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Not really. You have to have really strong hands and be willing to do the stretch( of time in prison) if you did.
    I wasnt being serious

    Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

    Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


    I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone

  6. #12246
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    !st let me say I agree with TTM and facepalm, but then I dont in some instances, however I also feel to change the form due to your personal desire to do so deviates further from the original intent of the form/move itself. It is like the old thing where 10 people are in a room and by the time the story is passed to the 10th person the story is unrecognisable. So are forms. The tech should be mastered in its purest form then applied in combat under different cicumstances that is how different applications are manifested . I do not think the form shopuld be changed for this reason though KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  7. #12247
    Quote Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
    I wasnt being serious

    Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

    Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


    I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone
    For the throat rip,Try grabbing a piece of their collar or shirt, underneath a punch etc.

    Wrist break and a break/ release technique are two different things.

    I know the application you are talking about .

    Not very practical and not very applicable.

    Think about the range of motion.

    When someone grabs your wrist, reach underneath and grab their wrist, twist either clockwise or counter clockwise( depending on which side forward you are ) this should break/ release their grasp, then finish the technique like the sweep , front snap kick, etc.
    Last edited by tattooedmonk; 06-30-2009 at 02:49 PM.

  8. #12248
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    !st let me say I agree with TTM and facepalm, but then I dont in some instances, however I also feel to change the form due to your personal desire to do so deviates further from the original intent of the form/move itself. It is like the old thing where 10 people are in a room and by the time the story is passed to the 10th person the story is unrecognisable. So are forms. The tech should be mastered in its purest form then applied in combat under different cicumstances that is how different applications are manifested . I do not think the form shopuld be changed for this reason though KC
    I do not agree with changing the form just to change the form.

    However, if the movement and techniques in the form do not make sense then they need to be change for it to be applicable.

    Also , what do you mean by "in it's purest form"??

    I have seen Master Sin teach a form multiple ways and they are all supposed to be the "purest" way, how can that be if they are slightly different every time??.

    I think the basic structure of the forms is what is meant to be followed ,as a guide. But how you see it and apply the techniques are up to you, as long as it works .

    Adding extra flair into the form that wastes energy, is inapplicable and does not follow proper body mechanics , ranges of motion and physics is my biggest issue with teachers and students.

  9. #12249
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    I too have seen GMT teach something differently but it is not typically a technique but a single move more often like a palm strike instead of a punch. The mechanics are the same but the outcome different at times. Lets talk about a technique for example the spinning technique to one knee in Tai Pang Sin Kune (sp) ?, anyway what do yopu feel the helicopter move is for ??
    Also I feel that all movements or tech make sense we just need to dig harder for some than others. KC
    Last edited by kwaichang; 06-30-2009 at 03:47 PM.
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. #12250
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    a couple of thoughts on the subject

    the shaolin that i practice is some pretty old material. over all the years these routines have been around, you can be sure the sets have been modified and updated accordingly.

    with that said i have two ways i perform my sets. one way, the way that i show to others who want me to show a form, or if i were to teach the set to someone, is the way i was taught by my teacher, the way his teacher taught him and so on back into history, the traditional representation of the style and its routines.

    then there is the way i have that is personal to me. the techniques are all there, but the range of motion is slightly tweeked, the depth/hight of the stances are also modified. all of the modifications ive made to my personal set are all based on my modern understanding of combat, the way people fight now, my personal experience, and the way my body likes to move.

    it reminds me of something i once heard some shaolin monk or other say, which i wont nail on the head but i remember the message, essentially;

    the essence of shaolin boxing is adaptability. to be able to adapt to your environment and to use what is available to succeed. this means that a shaolin boxers martial arts will be influenced by his surrounding area. the martial arts in his region, the cultural aspects, the regional crime and violence, etc. all come into play when we are developing ourselves as martial artists.

    my version is much more wordy to be sure, but its the same message.

    this is a huge aspect as to why people will change forms. usually though when someone does that, they will retain a 'pure' version of their form. pure being used in the sense that this was the way the form was passed onto them by their teachers, and will be retained with the goal of passing on the same material in the same fashion. minor details here and there will always be adjusted from person to person, but roughly the form will preserved be the same to pass on the way it was recieved.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  11. #12251
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    [QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;944732]Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it. END QUOTE

    Then in all those cases, you are not doing "the" form, but something else. That is different. A key in your comment is the "not always" ego. I have heard tales of teachers who learn the material, and then immediately change something in it so it is "theirs." I'll agree with you to the extent that the teacher is not attempting to portray what he/she is teaching as what they were taught, as opposed to "this is my form." Isn't that exactly one of the many rumor-based criticisms of SD?

    I wasn't trying to suggest someone can't practice their stuff their way. I know lots of people who have made up their own "routine," a form of sorts, to practice techniques in rhythym and succession the way they like. One might even change a move here or there, because they can't do the right one the way it should be (at the time). But they don't pass it off to others as being anything other than that. Nor have they taken material taught by one with decades of original training in TMA, and in a short time "improve" it by themselves. In many cases if the choice is between the material as taught by GM X, or as taught by student of GM X, modified by them, I think there is a distinction worth noting, and worth knowing. Sure, some students get to the point of earning the right to do that, but I would go so far as to call it a selective few.

    And there is also a difference when the form as "options" -- you can do it this way, or that. According to one with the authority and credibility to make that decision.

    And I'll agree to the extent, sometimes there is a reason, other than ego. Sometimes not.

    I've commented before, when someone starts questioning the quality of what they are being taught, including to the extent of changing it on their own, thinking they can do it better "this way," time to get a new teacher.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  12. #12252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
    I wasnt being serious

    Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

    Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


    I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone
    Yes. I saw a shuai jiao practitioner utilize the same movement (minus the broken-leg stance [his was like a cat stance]) to hook the leg for a sweep. Probably the correct motion, if you ask me. I'm willing to bet ten bucks you could youtube shuai jiao and find it---I was told it was a common throw.

    SD has striker-itis. Everything's a strike, I swear. They even add two strikes into CHen 18 on the 180 degree flourish on the last movement of "Jade Maiden Plays with Shuttle." WTF? A Leaping double tap? I'm thinking....no. Even in Yang tai chi. Single whip for instance. My god, you could use it as a strike, but what's the chance you'll land it....LOL. It's a basic throw involving mild grappling. One of the first things I learned outside SD. IF you go learn tai chi elsewhere, you're often introduced to more of its grappling aspects--but the teachers still can't perform it usually unless you step back and then lunge punch...LOL. BTW, TTM, I see chin-na as any stand-up grappling. LOL...I introduced "Chin-na sparring" to some buds of mine. You basically wrestle and look for opportunities to pull off locks. I've gotten a lot better. Pllus, you get to work on your hooks and clinching and take-down defense. There's no striking allowed. Only grappling, sweeping, throwing, wrestling, and locking. When we do push hands at SD, since everyone's into the Tai Chi striking, they get tense, or they don't bother to actually do "push hands". I just do my thing, get "lit up" LOL by what I consider bad push-handers, and move on to the next person.

    I

    If they really wanted to do "push hands" by their reckoning, I'd clinch 'em and knee 'em in the face, throw 'em, throw a bomb overhand right, or kick the **** out of their lead leg. Not everyone in SD does bad "push hands", but there are quite a few that do.....and I mean quite a few. But if you can get over it, and get "beaten" without taking it personally, it's not so bad. You just know who you can't learn **** from concerning tai chi applications. The good push-hands guys can light you up even as they set up their throws. There's a few of 'em around ATL that can.

    I think, when people who don't like to spar or experiment on classmates are trying to rationalize something in SD, their default answer is "strike!". LOL....it's almost always wrong.

  13. #12253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    the shaolin that i practice is some pretty old material. over all the years these routines have been around, you can be sure the sets have been modified and updated accordingly.

    with that said i have two ways i perform my sets. one way, the way that i show to others who want me to show a form, or if i were to teach the set to someone, is the way i was taught by my teacher, the way his teacher taught him and so on back into history, the traditional representation of the style and its routines.

    then there is the way i have that is personal to me. the techniques are all there, but the range of motion is slightly tweeked, the depth/hight of the stances are also modified. all of the modifications ive made to my personal set are all based on my modern understanding of combat, the way people fight now, my personal experience, and the way my body likes to move.

    it reminds me of something i once heard some shaolin monk or other say, which i wont nail on the head but i remember the message, essentially;

    the essence of shaolin boxing is adaptability. to be able to adapt to your environment and to use what is available to succeed. this means that a shaolin boxers martial arts will be influenced by his surrounding area. the martial arts in his region, the cultural aspects, the regional crime and violence, etc. all come into play when we are developing ourselves as martial artists.

    my version is much more wordy to be sure, but its the same message.

    this is a huge aspect as to why people will change forms. usually though when someone does that, they will retain a 'pure' version of their form. pure being used in the sense that this was the way the form was passed onto them by their teachers, and will be retained with the goal of passing on the same material in the same fashion. minor details here and there will always be adjusted from person to person, but roughly the form will preserved be the same to pass on the way it was recieved.
    BINGO Well said!!!!

  14. #12254
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    Then in all those cases, you are not doing "the" form, but something else. That is different. A key in your comment is the "not always" ego. I have heard tales of teachers who learn the material, and then immediately change something in it so it is "theirs." I'll agree with you to the extent that the teacher is not attempting to portray what he/she is teaching as what they were taught, as opposed to "this is my form." Isn't that exactly one of the many rumor-based criticisms of SD?

    I wasn't trying to suggest someone can't practice their stuff their way. I know lots of people who have made up their own "routine," a form of sorts, to practice techniques in rhythym and succession the way they like. One might even change a move here or there, because they can't do the right one the way it should be (at the time). But they don't pass it off to others as being anything other than that. Nor have they taken material taught by one with decades of original training in TMA, and in a short time "improve" it by themselves. In many cases if the choice is between the material as taught by GM X, or as taught by student of GM X, modified by them, I think there is a distinction worth noting, and worth knowing. Sure, some students get to the point of earning the right to do that, but I would go so far as to call it a selective few.

    And there is also a difference when the form as "options" -- you can do it this way, or that. According to one with the authority and credibility to make that decision.

    And I'll agree to the extent, sometimes there is a reason, other than ego. Sometimes not.

    I've commented before, when someone starts questioning the quality of what they are being taught, including to the extent of changing it on their own, thinking they can do it better "this way," time to get a new teacher.

    Sure. I do think forms should be taught standard. When I help out lower belts, I show them the standard routine. IF they ask why I don't do the standard routine exactly when I practice, I say--because I'm not doing "standard routines." LOL.

  15. #12255

    Shaolin Wookie....

    I agree with your statement about many of the practitioners of SD having Strikeritis.

    I LOVE Chin Na, ever since I started learning and breaking down forms I have found so many grabs, throws, and takedowns within the material ,just like you have.

    It is amazing how much you can find if you look deep inside the material . You just have to have and open mind, follow through specific ranges of motion and utilize proper body mechanics.

    It is that simple.

    The internal arts alone have so much grappling in them. I have barely scratched the surface. The other day I found a grappling /takedown move in Snake Creeps Down the Vine.

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