Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

Lets talk about a technique for example the spinning technique to one knee in Tai Pang Sin Kune (sp) ?, anyway what do you feel the helicopter move is for ?? KC

I see it as a grappling/ throw /takedown technique.

[Shaolin Wookie]

FACEPALM...I just realilzed you were writing "bird break" rather than bird "beak". Are you talking about the standing arm break catches from "Tai Peng Sin Kune"?

If so, deflect a punch (if you're doing the tech. exactly like in form, w/ crossover step to the left, with right leg in front, it'll have to be a left handed punch) kind of like technique 1, but rather than controlling the shoulder, rotate off of the lower bicep or elbow while pulling back with the wrist. If you land it correctly, you've got a standing armbar (chin-na 12) while kneeling, with the exposed elbow poised for a nasty break, using your knee as a chopping block and your right forearm as the takedown/break striking surface. Of course, the point is to drive the arm down to your knee mid-rotation, so you get leverage. Can be done, but not so much from a striking reaction, so much as grappling for holds. One of my fav's....also present in Fei Hu Chu Tung, in the Shaolin-Tao schools, if you choose to stress that particular app.

As for the arm-break catch application.....kind of retarded in my opinion. Too risky and you can't really practice it.

[Facepalm]

Thanks for an explanation of those moves from "great bird spreads its wings" But what I was referring to is lohan#18 specifically.

I get that they just grabbed your arm but it seems like it would be really difficult to twist their arm and break it in this way. I was wondering if this movement could be interpreted in other useful ways.

Thanks alot guys

[tattooedmonk]

Thanks for an explanation of those moves from "great bird spreads its wings" But what I was referring to is lohan#18 specifically.

I get that they just grabbed your arm but it seems like it would be really difficult to twist their arm and break it in this way. I was wondering if this movement could be interpreted in other useful ways.

Thanks alot guys

post 11665.....

[Facepalm]

Cool I must have missed it thanks TTM

[Shaolin Wookie]

Facepalm...



Short form 18 begins with the mini chin-na of reversing the grip, but the rest of the short form is actually the exact same as #4--a front sweep. The point isn't to break the arm---do something you can actually practice in class with regularity. Use the straightened-out arm for leverage. Keep his face away from his shoulder with the flourish (your extended right arm)--this keeps him from retaining his balance. (this is also the point of sparring tech #10 IMO, but that's another story).

I've had people tell me you can't practice this sweep safely, but it's really a common sanshou throw. I've been tinkering with it for a while now.

If you're practicing #4 with a partner, or even just as a form, really thrust your right hand across your body---you're looking for leverage by getting it to the opposite side of the opponent's neck (since you're left-side forward, you're trying to get your right elbow close to the right side (his right) of his jaw. When you rotate your hip and sweep, try to touch his head to your right hip. Sometimes this is enough to get him to the floor or stumbling off to the corner (LOL sidedkick 'em while he's unbalanced). The other arm secures a hook or just assists the throw by pushing on the right side of the opponent (I prefer a hook, since you retain control of an arm when he falls). If you rotate your waist, this throw is safe and easy. You can even transition to a frontside headlock and do a one-legged squat, throw over your shoulder type throw, and finish with a Tang lang back roll to secure a mounted frontside headlock---but that's a different throw, kind of. You don't even have to really "kick up" underneath your sweep. You just have to make sure you catch his right leg as you rotate and extend your right foot and then lift slightly. You can even take both legs if your opponent's your size, for a nasty takedown.

If you're doing #18, it's a half sweep, but it's still the same sweep and it gets the same effect. I prefer the full sweep, but a half sweep can do the trick. Sometimes the half sweep is better for both legs since you retain a better base--but you really have to rotate your hip on it.

If you're practicing with a partner, just have him perform a forward left shoulder roll for his own protection. If he doesn't roll, he lands face down at your feet. If you've got an arm, you can press down with your foot on his shoulder blade and crank his arm 'till he taps.

this is one of my favorite throws, and yes...you can do it safely. Not exactly the way I was taught the app...but it's the one that works, and you don't have to change anything in the motion.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Edit to above:

By "hook with your other arm" above, I meant: secure a lazy underhook. If you hook him too tightly, you'll actually hold him up---thus defeating the purpose of the sweep.

When you get good at this one, practice where your opponent steps forward on the front sweep (over your foot), but keeps his balance. Then transition to a backsweep a la #7. These are really great sweeps and combinations. But for the transition to #7, definately go for both legs, and use your right hand to press forward/down on your opponents chest. You should end up with control of his right arm (but only if you switch to an overhook with your left arm before the sweep). Then it's time to practice your armbar submissions---a kneeling figure 4 or transition to an armbar the ground...LOL.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The best way to train your frontsweep is to have your opponent take a right lead stance (you stand your left-shoulder-to-his-right-shoulder with him), then reach across his chest with your left hand (palm to his chest, thumb to floor, flat--not grabbing, or else you'll be holding him up) and sweep his right leg with your left foot as you try to make a big arcing circle to your left hip with your left hand. It's the same sweep, done from a different side. But it's good if you're not good at your sweeps, because there's less chance of tweaking out someone's knee.

Same as # 4, though. You can do this sweep with the position in #18, but it requires a little tweaking on your part, since you'll be half-sweeping with your other leg. The main keys to it are--don't grab, use leverage, always pull with your elbows and arms straight, and pull them to your hips as you rotate.

Makes your sweeps nasty.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm trying to get some people to help me video some of these throws myself. Not for ego---but I find most new students don't have any desire to practice short forms, mostly because they don't get them. But if they did understand them, they'd probably practice them all the time, and with a partner...LOL! Until then, there are some close paralells in the following vids I just found:

1. 1:00 in--- (elbow blocking #4, more or less). He's using his right for an underhook rather than for leverage. He's also using gi grabs for holds. SD's "holds" depend on leverage, since you don't always have a gi on or a grab like that available (at least, we don't have gi's in SL-Tao). SD requires body rotation and maximized hip rotation. So take that into consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPpBSn_F_wM

2. 21 seconds in--Lian Wu Zhang's backsweep. The guy in this vid does it pretty lazily IMO, and relies more on a jujitsu base. But if you make your "triangle" hold around his neck tighter, you don't have to pick up your back leg on the sweep. You just backsweep and pull forward with your arms. I like this one, because you can do it when you lock up with your opponent and start grappling hard. You can try for a triangle choke and sweep, or do it with an underhook and an overhook/wrestler hold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FFP6...eature=related

3. This is a cool demo I just found. shows form/throw and likeness/differences between them. This is almost like the Shaolin Bird throw I was talking about to Facepalm. Throw begins about 50 seconds in. Guy ends in a bow stance. THe version I saw pulled back into a cat stance. This guy's looks like it would have more power though. Notice how the hands make the same bird circle, more or less. (However, I think we rotate the other way, if I'm not mistaken). I'd have to play with this one a little more to figure out how to describe it. (Our verson, not hte vid's)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLe0...eature=related

Later....

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL...what's funny is I've never practiced/studied at a chinese martial arts school where they'll teach you these freakin' devastating and useful techniques as the very first thing you learn. Ususally you get retarded, one-step ippon-like sequences alone, which are somehow more "Chinese" than ours--probably because they're less useful . Unfortunately, depending on your teacher, you just might not get the most useful application from the short forms in SD. The teacher from my school frequently teaches takedowns, throwing, sweeping, and ground fighting workshops, but interest is often limited. I don't think people get just how integrated those elements are in the core material.

You've got to get a classmate, or a lower belt--who can't say no if you say: "dude, get over here. You're going to be my guinea pig." LOL.....and then throw them around, and trade off.

I didn't get the best techs at first, when I asked or when they were shown to me, b/c nobody really showed me on a short-form to application basis (that is, the apps as I now understand them). I was often in the school (it's a 7 day a week school, pretty much--that's pretty rare), so I wasn't always under the head master's instruction. Over time the short forms made more sense--a lot more sense than some of the techs some other blackbelts showed me when I was a lower belt. Hopefully I can pass some of my apps and training methods on. Doesn't disrupt the teaching flow, but it might make it more fight-applicable.

Nothing against KAT...I like some of the striking/take-down applications, but they're not always utilizing the short forms for maximum efficiency against a resisting opponent.....and many start from a gi grab--which is not fight-applicable exactly.

It's the throws and sweeps. # 4, 7, 18, etc. are definately not Tan Tui or Lohan, IMO. They're short forms taken from an art like shuai jiao or something, or just basic throwing/sweeping techs that are 100% effective. I guess that's why most arts outside of "Shaolin-certified" contemporary/fake-traditional wushu have them...LOL.

[arinathos.valin]

Hey gang...

Gonna throw in my two cents regarding changing forms...

In my opinion, forms were a way for people to try to communicate core concepts of the art to students in an era where there was no video and literacy rates were low. In each of the forms are principles of movement that should be understood, and most importantly, internalized.

Forms are, to a certain extent, based on the founders' strengths and abilities. The inventor of the form found that certain ways of movement worked for him/her in a fighting situation. The form is a way of cataloging how to apply those moves and the body mechanics and principles of movement underlying those applications. However, not everyone has the same strengths and abilities and body habitus of the originator of the form. If one's body or limitations of movement would make the original application ineffective, it is next to useless for that individual to continue trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, so to speak. Changing the form in subtle but significant ways, may help the practitioner do the application effectively, OR may help them find a completely new application for that move.

The founder of the form already had the benefit of having internalized the principles of movement that the form entails. They already knew how the move worked. We, on the other hand, are trying to get our bodies to learn what the form originator already had. One of the main problems I found with strong emphasis on forms is that one can find really cool applications for just about any movement until the cows come home... but if those principles of movement are not internalized, they will be completely ineffective in an actual situation. I think we're all familiar with the "brown belt syndrome" where a student who has so many cool new applications in their head can't think of the right one to use, and then gets popped in the head with a simple straight jab. Real fighting situations, and even sparring situations, can be wild, unpredictable, and chaotic. Watch the people sparring at the next tournament. Some of them will have entered in forms competition and done remarkable, beautiful katas... but when it comes time to use it in sparring... they're not using those moves! It's usually a jump around punch punch kick affair, and doesn't look a thing like the form they were just doing.

IMHO, forms training can be demanding, aesthetically pleasing, and can transmit important information to make someone a better fighter. However, I think that a slavish devotion to the form itself is like mistaking the finger for the moon, so to speak. The important thing is the underlying principles the form is trying to teach, rather than the form itself. It's kind of like copying Shakespeare. One can practice their penmanship/ calligraphy, and memorize long sonnets, but ultimately, if you make a beautiful handwritten copy of Romeo and Juliet, you have just that... a copy. I think that a true master will take those words and letters, and phrasing that he's learned from studying, and create something new... based on their own experiences and knowledge.

[tattooedmonk]

You must have this stored / saved so that anytime the subject of forms comes up all you have to do is pop this in!?.

[arinathos.valin]

LOL! Actually, some of this stuff has been circulating in my head for a while, and this topic just gave me the opportunity to put some of these ideas on paper, so to speak.

I hope it sounded good, at least...

[kwaichang]

Long Tasseled Sword on you tube I like it KC

[tattooedmonk]

Long Tasseled Sword on you tube I like it KC

which one??