Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

true very true KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

When I was in Japanese Kara-te one could be in an organization such as the JKA or the AJKDF or something like that. Do any of you know of an umbrella organization that will certify instructors for the promotion of students within their organization. KC

They're style specific, aren't they? CMA is too variegated to have an umbrella organization, and I don't think Japanese Kara-te or Kempo would offer you the same, since you're not doing their forms.

I've taken lessons from CMA guys much younger than I who certified their students. I think that's why CMA is so suspicious of fraudulent claims--there's no governing body, since the transmission of forms isn't as "traditional" as the Japanese styles. They don't have as much loyalty to their masters as much as the forms and traditions--at least, schools like Okinawan kara-te anyways.

[Baqualin]

I suppose this is more of a question for "purist" CMA, but if you were to do, say, traditional Chang Quan, and some of the moves were out of order, but you still do all the moves of the form, is your Chang Quan wrong? A wushu judge would say yes, a fighter would just say.....who cares?

I've been rebuilding the Longfist (which is 90% modern wushu interpretation) stuff I let slide, and rehabbing the Tan Tui I learned....just wondering. I learned many straight arm moves--so it was pretty contemporary stuff. Fun, challenging, and not worthless. I enjoy it. You could do any of the moves in different orders. The applications are simple, you know where the divides and markers are in the form---so I could do it bass ackwards and still learn the same thing. I was just thinking this today.

SD forms have all of the components of other "common" or "standard" wushu forms, but often out of order in some parts. Our White Monkey STP, Cha Chui--the sevenstar stuff--same basic pattern of the more "standard" forms (if there is such a thing)--4 lines, 3rd line w/ the roundhouse retreat and jumping maneuvers...the first line is pretty much move for move with most versions. I say it's the same form (although, I've seen different versions of the form between Sevenstar schools) no matter the pattern. It's almost always the same techs: waist chopping, mantis fanning techs, same footwork, the palm on forearm stepping tech/block/strike thingy....forget the name, same punching philosophy, same delivery system, same everything---and Brendan Lai, whose form is not quite visually pretty, yet technically beautiful, which I respect more than any others I've seen, isn't like most other forms.

I don't think there's a wrong so long as there's intent. I think the criterion for "standard" or "correctness" are influenced more by BS "point scoring" cards of judges than MA's....LOL. That's obvious, but not often acknowledged. I remember I was doing Tai CHi 37/64 w/ W. C.C. Chen's dudes, and I accidently did "hang the lotus" out of habit rather than "sweep the lotus" and they said: "No, you're doing the kick wrong." Granted I was, because I was supposed to be working on their form, but I was doing a technically proficient kick that took more control, coordination, and strength. I was at another Shaolin (non SD) school one morning and the teacher said--"don't roll out your open hand before you chamber and punch. It's incorrect. You're broadcasting your intent. That doesn't work in combat." But that's a hallmark of Sevenstar mantis--the famous mantis grab pull-and-punch....LOL. Since I've been drilling Cha Chui techs a lot, that habit has entered my chambering. I just assented and did what he asked.

LOL....there's no "right" in CMA, even when you're doing "standard" non-SD CMA in a CMA school. Maybe that's why I think the SD/CMA argument is so hilarious. CMA, sD and non-SD, seems to be a refuge for geeks who like to preach, spew out hot air, and feign humility with routine bombast, and front like there's one philosophy to fighting. Not all teachers, students, etc. But many. It's like the last bastion for people with inferiority complexes. If I get one more lecture from someone how my fighting ready stance is ineffective, when it's really the SD sparring stance (diff. arm/hand position, though), which is the MMA ready stance, which is the Muay Thai ready stance, whcih is the Sanshou ready stance, and provides you the opportunity to actually utilize your many animal techs etc. b/c you can transition through the movments from a superior offensive/defensive position, and then have a wrist grab maneuver explained one more time from someone telling me my such-and-such isn't up to speed, I think I'll puke. It's always up to speed, but maybe from the viepoint of another MA I picked up elswhere, or that I've refined...LOL.

Think of SD forms, diff. between mainland CMA forms, US CMA forms, and even between S-Tao forms. Could be faulty memory, etc, in transmission. Could be just different interpretation. Could be made up by a dude that could punch and kick your lights out. Could be the skill of the teachers on either side (pro or con), could be different forms due to geographical/cultural influences. Could be the teachers thought the forms were too wussy and decided to make them more technical.

Look at this dude's pirouettes, then think of our frontsweep, 180 deg. backsweep combo in Lian Wu Zhang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

I'm thinking the Indonesian school cut out many of the "dancing" maneuvers that are hallmarks of CMA wushu to stress sweeps, etc. I always thought that. I don't think one way is better than another. But I certainly think SD, GM The', the Indonesian school did. The theory behind our "flourishes" in Chie Chien, Short form 18, etc.---they're teaching a very important concept of sweeping with leverage--keeping the face away from the hands, keeping a stright line between the arm and the head, etc---throws of the center of balance.

With the exception of the flourishes, basic concept, basic techniques, footwork--all the meat of those Lian Wu Zhang forms is same.

:21 seconds in--think of the beginning of second and third lines in our form, the front snap kick to front sweep, then back sweep combination w/ quick steps. Here, more of a skipping to 360 jump.

If you still had all the techniques, all the strikes, sweeps, throws, is it wrong or is it right? Which one is wrong, and which right, from a technique, application, fighting, form standpoint? It's really a moot point, right?

LOL...story of the thread here. It comes down to whcih form is in the most recognizable order on a larger scale. But that has nothing to do with technique, application, etc., so long as they're in the same basic chunks.

Just thinking about hte theory of MA. From a practical application standpoint, we all ought to be doing MMA. They train MA the best, in my direct experience. BBJ's rules/art allows for full contact without risking as much injury, so it's a superior art since you get full resistance (that's why I like Chin-na sparring).

I'm of the opinion if you're doing Karate, SD, Shaolin, Aikido, Jujitsu, TKD, MMA--as long as you're practicing the basic components of fighting with practical intent, it will always be somewhat uglier than what CMA puts out as its clarion call for "Chinese-ness." LOL...just look at a JKD dude fighting, or a sanshou fighter, and then look at a wushu, contemp. or traditional, forms dude, an SD dude--and you'll see the diff. Fighting looks like fighting.

Nice!!!
BQ

[goju]

oh my god they are makinga movie out of sd lol
well thats going strait to dvd lmao


dosnt suprise me about master david he would waste a big portion of his time bad mouthing the masters in kung fu magazine while we were suposed to practice

[Shaolin Wookie]

oh my god they are makinga movie out of sd lol
well thats going strait to dvd lmao


dosnt suprise me about master david he would waste a big portion of his time bad mouthing the masters in kung fu magazine while we were suposed to practice

Dude, that's weird/ironic, since GM The' was featured in the mag once or twice.

[Facepalm]

oh my god they are makinga movie out of sd lol
well thats going strait to dvd lmao


dosnt suprise me about master david he would waste a big portion of his time bad mouthing the masters in kung fu magazine while we were suposed to practice

Yea Im sure it wont be a box office smash but it will be fun to see.

But really, Master David does tend to drone on about stuff from time to time but Ive never heard him bad mouthing anyone. Sometimes hell say something like "judo only has throws" or "such and such art is not as diverse as SD" but thats not necessarily bad mouthing them hes just selling the stuff he teaches.

Maybe years ago he would "bad mouth" people but he definitely doesn't do it anymore.

[tattooedmonk]

Yea Im sure it wont be a box office smash but it will be fun to see.

But really, Master David does tend to drone on about stuff from time to time but Ive never heard him bad mouthing anyone. Sometimes hell say something like "judo only has throws" or "such and such art is not as diverse as SD" but thats not necessarily bad mouthing them hes just selling the stuff he teaches.

Maybe years ago he would "bad mouth" people but he definitely doesn't do it anymore.

I knew him for over 15 years and I have never heard him bad mouth another art or another martial artist. He just likes promoting his art and himself. He likes to talk for sure, learn what you can.

[goju]

im seriously telling the truth while i was at sd he would even cut into class time banging on about how much some of the masters in kung fu tai chi sucked i remember him particularly going on about how much of a fraud that one master was who came up with his cardio tai chi
he woudl also go on about his favorite movies lol apparently he didnt like "the one"thoigh i am fond of that particular jet li movie

[Baqualin]

im seriously telling the truth while i was at sd he would even cut into class time banging on about how much some of the masters in kung fu tai chi sucked i remember him particularly going on about how much of a fraud that one master was who came up with his cardio tai chi
he woudl also go on about his favorite movies lol apparently he didnt like "the one"thoigh i am fond of that particular jet li movie

The One is an awesome movie!!
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

im seriously telling the truth while i was at sd he would even cut into class time banging on about how much some of the masters in kung fu tai chi sucked i remember him particularly going on about how much of a fraud that one master was who came up with his cardio tai chi
he woudl also go on about his favorite movies lol apparently he didnt like "the one"thoigh i am fond of that particular jet li movie

Then your taste sucks. BTW...some of the masters in Kung Fu/Tai CHi aren't the hot **** they think they are. LOL. SHOCKER!!!

I can't imagine someone breaking into class time to talk about a crappy magazine nobody in the class likely read. Who reads kung fu/Tai CHi anyways?



Er....I mean, a great magazine. And everyone reads it.

[goju]

i know thats the biggest reason why i left sd he would cut into class time talking about crap i remember one of those extra seminars they have here and there on sd forms well i signed up for one and payed for it and over and hour was wasted on david talking about him and his wifes trip to russia lol

i know kungfu tai chi sucks i hate that short mexican who runs it whats his name gene ching lol

[Old Noob]

on how long until he's banned?

[OldandUsed]

Should be quick. I have to admit, even the other stuff pales in comparison to this.

[Old Noob]

....... Yep.......

[Lucas]

depends on if any mods actually look in this monster of a thread.