Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[taai gihk yahn]

So Taai being a PT if you are, then you must have been a CI at some time. Have any of your students ever done anything wrong? If so you should turn in your license and stop practicing PT if you are responsible. Of course you wouldnt do that because you have complete control over what all your students do.

first off, it's all a non sequitor - and your attempt at personalizing it and creating a straw man hypothetical is not only predictable, it is sad; second, your argument is not only not analogous, it is completely faulty: if a student did something wrong under my direct supervision (which has never happened), if there were negligence on my part (e.g. - lack of appropriate supervision leading to the error), I would be accountable, with all the ramifications thereupon; however, once that student leaves my direct supervision, the accountability for actions thereafter are not on me, it is on their own license; and, derrr, the profession of PT is not based on the precepts of traditional CMA, whereas SD, being ostensibly a TCMA () is - so again, the analogy is faulty;

I am aware of the rules you printed , but that is not Morals they are a philosophical attitude. There is a difference.

lol; you have no ability to reason intelligently; those rues are not an "attitude" - they are behavioral guidelines, basically telling you how to act and not act; you may not think that they constitute a moral code, but then again you reason like a mad parrot and you write with all the eloquence of a plate of beans attempting to negotiate its way out of a cow's digestive system...

BTW now I think I know who you are

good lord, it took you long enough, the fact notwithstanding that I already told you who I was!

and am ashamed to say I too am a Therapist

not half as ashamed as I am that you are one

and it saddens me that you have so little empathy for a fellow MA whether you care for their system or not. KC

romantic claptrap; where is it written that one has any responsibility towards or should care about another MAist simply by virtue that they are another MAist? that's just stupid, and unfortunately this silly belief has permeated the community - although it's usually the people doing the questionable stuff that put this out there as opposed to those who do something valid; and if I think what you do is crap, why would I have respect for you as an individual given that you choose to do what you do? and why would you even care? personally I never expect another MAist to suspend their critical judgement of what I do out of some BS "code" of mock deference; anyway, enjoy being sad;

[taai gihk yahn]

taai gihk yahn
I would appreciate your comments more if there were less venom behind them.

I doubt that - the fact that you read into them that way is indicative that you are looking for a reason to dismiss them as opposed to taking them on their own merit, regardless of the "tone" of the person saying them

This is a discussion about a very flammable topic. While I do not agree with what has happened in Denver/Boulder that does not mean I will resort to name calling and bald faced flaming.

truth is truth no matter how it's stated;

He was found guilty. I for one am not a licensed therapist nor have I examined MDS.

what does that have to do w/anything?

My opinion is based on my moral attitude towards this type of behavior.

and that attitude is?

It would be great if the others here involved in the discussion could leave their egos at the door and attempt to discuss this from a more level headed viewpoint.

being levelheaded would preclude the ridiculous apologist behavior demonstrated by the SD'ers here who are scrambling to find any way to justify the whole thing;

He made a huge mistake (more than once it seems)
I dont agree with that behavior nor how it was responded to.
At the end of the day though, I still love this art. I WILL find a way to continue to train in it.

that's awesome and good for you; doesn't change the truth about what obviously goes on at the top of the SD pyramid

[goju]

i witness the horrors of david soards school myself!
his smelly feet permeating the air in the kwoon!
his constant babble about his favourite martial art movies!
his bad mouthing other masters every start of class!

and worst of all watching him try to throw a side kick!!!!!


.... THE HORROR!!!!........

[taai gihk yahn]

I am not saying to sympathise with DS I am saying that Taai is too harsh if in fact he is a Therapist he should be filled with Empathy for the people he serves.

are you mentally deficient? what are you talking about? whether I have empathy for the people I "serve" has nothing to do w/what we are talking about; are you drunk?

Not down grading for what they do, or whom they are associated with. I know for a fact in another school that another teacher was charged for the same type of thing. He is in jail for it. DS was found guilty of a lesser charge that is the system , it isnt always right but that is the way it is. Many of you talk about how they should be kicked out and stripped of rank. Those same people talk of the martial creeds and morals and ethics. Then why would you abandon someone when they need you most. He is getting Psychological treatment, at this time everyone abandoning him is the last thing DS needs. He needs help not harrassment. pardon the pun. I am ashamed of all these so called MA that are ready to throw someone to the wolves just because of personal feelings about , in this case , SD. KC

oh please - someone call a waambulance; let's see - the man behaves in an ethically repugnant manner completely inconsistent with the position he holds, and now he is entitled to empathy and consideration? puhleeze;

BTW non of us really know what was done by GMS . now do we. its all speculation. KC

as BD says, we know what was NOT done;

[bawang]

i dont understand why ppl want to argue on and on loll

shaolin + do + japanese funeral cloth = fake
shaolin do is fake

[tattooedmonk]

BS and that's just a pathetic attempt to try and excuse this sort of thing, for which there is no excuse, regardless of whatever phermonal or chakratic interactions may occur - I am a licensed PT in NYS, and have manually treated numerous attractive and necesarilly scantily-clad females; was there something "chemical" and "energetic" that occurred? you bet there was! did any of them ever give me very strong indication that it would be ok to do something of a non-professional sort? yes; but did I EVER do anything inappropriate or unethical? NEVER; why not? because I am a professional, and as a professional, I understand that the power dynamic of a therapist / patient relationship is fundamentally innappropriate to transfer into a personal one; and likewise, exactly the same with a student / teacher relationship; Soard is a MA professional; whether or not there are any legal statues governing that or not, it is still his sole responsibility as a professional to know the line clearly, to unequivocally stay on his side of it, and, if necessary re-draw the line for a student if they try to cross it; if the line is "blurry", it's because he CHOOSES to see it as such and then CHOOSES to keep it that way; end of story, chemistry is no excuse;


in your mind, maybe; stop trying to be an apologist for what is obviously a clear-cut case of on-going, long-term inappropriate behavior;


yes it is - you just wish it wasn't


the only fact you need to know is those brought out in the court decision; he was guilty, pure and simple - there are no "facts" that will serve to ameliorate his actions, because in his position he should be beyond suspicion;

Hey buddy, I am not trying to excuse anything .....

What I am trying to say is, if someone is mentally sick, emotionally weak, morally challenged , etc. they might not realize they are sick, did you think of that there doc??

He might be in denile about the incidences but that could be part of the sickness, couldnt it??

If these things were going on for a long time and he didnt realize that it was inappropriate, could this also be part of the sickness??

What about childhood issues or self esteem or self confidence issues . If he had any of these things do you think he could have done what he did because of it ?

Would that lead you to believe that he might be sick???

Chemicals and energy are everything and make up a great deal of how scientist, doctors and therapist help people that have sickness, illnesses and diseases recover or manage their specific issues.

As for yourself, I would expect someone with your supposed backround to be more understanding , compassionate and open-minded about such things.

And if he is so guilty and beyond correction, rehabilitation, treatment , or forgiveness, how come he was allowed to plead to the least of all the charges and is allowed to walk free???

[goju]

oh bull****
yeah david sick he suffers from a severe case of gropingitis lol!
we shoud really feel sorry for him Actually poor guy he doesnt deserve this at all

[BoulderDawg]

What I am trying to say is, if someone is mentally sick, emotionally weak, morally challenged , etc. they might not realize they are sick, did you think of that there doc??

He might be in denile about the incidences but that could be part of the sickness, couldnt it??

If these things were going on for a long time and he didnt realize that it was inappropriate, could this also be part of the sickness??

What about childhood issues or self esteem or self confidence issues . If he had any of these things do you think he could have done what he did because of it ?

Would that lead you to believe that he might be sick???

So? If he kills someone aren't they just as dead?

[BoulderDawg]

So if I go out and just start humpin the first hot girl I see can I just yell out "No, No it's okay...I'm sick!"

[goju]

"yes thats my s chlong on your leg under the table madam but its okay im CAAAAAAAAAAAAAARAZAAAAAAAAY!!!

[goju]

Aw this made me think of david when i saw it

[kwaichang]

You guys are the most opinionated people I have ever read.
Taai , you must be senile I never knew who you were until I read your post about being a therapist. Then I put 2 and 2 togethor. I must have angered you about Ross.? That is why I am amazed , as you and I had a decent dialogue on our PM's. About PT. But that aside I choose not to get too descriptive with my writing on here so as to keep from alienating people. I dont want to come off as a conceited twit. Yes , the analogy does apply and how do you know that a student of yours did nothing wrong, you dont have to be in the room all the time, you yourself admitted to having thought about patients who were scantily clad etc,. BTW didnt they teach you draping in school? Just a thought when I read your post.
Back on the subject. What DS did was wrong , I feel his schools should be taken away, I dont agree with what has happened in the judicial system and I feel more should be done. No excuses. However, you guys are just using this to condemn SD not the person who diid the deed. That is ludicrous, but when the rules apply to you , you balk. Then you say that doesnt apply. KC

[taai gihk yahn]

You guys are the most opinionated people I have ever read.
Taai , you must be senile I never knew who you were until I read your post about being a therapist. Then I put 2 and 2 togethor.

and I shudder at what number that gets you in your world...

I must have angered you about Ross.? That is why I am amazed , as you and I had a decent dialogue on our PM's. About PT. But that aside I choose not to get too descriptive with my writing on here so as to keep from alienating people. I dont want to come off as a conceited twit.

no, you don't, but you do manage nicely to come off as a raving lunatic though

Yes , the analogy does apply

no it doesn't and if you think it does than you capacity for critical analysis is woefully inadequate;

and how do you know that a student of yours did nothing wrong, you dont have to be in the room all the time,

because, moron, I have never had a student treat a patient without me being in the room; ever; maybe you think letting a student treat without constant direct supervision is "educational", I do not;

you yourself admitted to having thought about patients who were scantily clad etc,.

are you retarded? you must be if you read my original post and then try to turn it into some sort of admission of inappropriate thoughts?; try to follow, I know it's hard for you: if one is treating an attractive woman (or man, if such is one's preference), one would have to be an idiot to deny that one can be affected by scent, what one sees, etc.; however, it can end there, if one is trained to simply notice this response and then choose to move past it - it's actually applied Ch'an - one has awareness of the immediate situation, but does not become entangled or act inappropriately; so having "thoughts about" would imply one is no longer present in the moment, but rather focused elsewhere, in fantasy, which would be not only wrong, but would impede one's ability to do the work that one is there to do; BTW, this usually happens early on in one's career - as one becomes more experienced, it's increasingly easier to maintain distance; OTOH, Soard obviously did not engage in this sort of detachment, he ran headlong into it;

BTW didnt they teach you draping in school? Just a thought when I read your post.

yes, duh; but if you know anything about real osteopathic treatment, when you work with a patient, draping is neither feasible nor possible, and not a single PT or DO I have ever learned from does it; as far as actual choice of garments, it also depends on the patient: I have had some people who wanted to always wear a t-shirt and sweats, and others who come in and strip down practically naked before I have said anything; my personal perspective is that as long as there is no inappropriate action on their part, patients can wear as much or as little as they want; sometimes, for some of them I wish they would cover up more, LOL, but that's as may be - I treat anyone who comes under their own terms as much as is possible without judgement;

Back on the subject. What DS did was wrong , I feel his schools should be taken away, I dont agree with what has happened in the judicial system and I feel more should be done. No excuses. However, you guys are just using this to condemn SD not the person who diid the deed. That is ludicrous, but when the rules apply to you , you balk. Then you say that doesnt apply. KC

what are you talking about? are you drunk again? have you been randomly dialing numbers at the IRS looking for you "friend" again?

[solo1]

He needs to resign. He needs to be quiet and humble and resign. This is not business as usual. Dont we all as martial artists no matter what system or where we are in our schooling believe we represent a higher calling? and isnt it manifested in our behavior both public and private? I feel horrible for his family and mostly his students but the right thing to do is to leave, now. He can sell the schools if need be but his departure must be fast and unequivical.

[Mas Judt]

I'm too busy to play on the boards and this is the best you guys can do?

The actions of this Soard fellow does not really indict the SD group. That's stupid and uncalled for. As far as Sin The' 'taking action' - what exactly is he expected to do? He's just a MA guy. He's not the feudal lord of the SD empire. I suppose if he was certain he could have kicked the guy out - but really, it's the cops job.

SD is SD. It is a hybrid MA - some Chinese and some JMA. My research shows it mostly CMA in Indonesia. There is a *unique* system buried in it. Typical of, well 'central' Chinese methods. This is not a value judgement, just an observation.

Stories about being the 'true' Shaolin, or 'real martial arts don't exist in China anymore' are common in Malaysia and Indonesia. Big Chinese diasporia - cut off for a while because of war and madness in the homeland. I'm not surprised The' believes this. I'm just surprised he hasn't figured out that much of his history is certainly fable.

SD runs into trouble with it's 'we teach every style' approach - as folks who do the individual styles often find them lacking.

The SD system is related to a silat system that is essentially the GM Ie material renamed.

In the past, I ribbed these guys pretty hard - largely because of the 'goofy' variants of known systems, and the incredibly unimpressive stuff I once saw at a Las Vegas Shaolin Do school. (My buddy Brian was apoplectic that they even called it Chinese Martial Arts.) - although he did not know that mixing JMA and CMA was common with some schools in Indonesia*. Although there ARE CMA methods that resemble Karate a great deal, and watching Sin The' move, he has a peculiar power method that is rather distinct from Karate.

However, I won't judge everybody by a few encounters. I am certain it is NOT the 'original Shaolin' blah, blah, blah - EVERYBODY virtually thinks they are in the Nusantra. But neither are they the complete devil - there are plenty of 'legit' CMA schools that offer just as wide ranging and rather thin offering. And there are plenty of schools that are far, far worse that are so-called 'real.'

Not my cup of tea, but not total crap like say, www.oomyungdoe.com

(Although the history is certainly as incorrect.)

*read Don Dreagers excellent 'Weapons and Fighting Arts of the Indonesian Archipelago" for more detail. As well as the writings of Dr. Phillip Davies.