View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #12811
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    Lightbulb My Opinion

    Well, considering the fact that many of these schools provided the main branches with a sizable amount of their income (not to mention some pocket change for GM Th'e), I think that he will probably recognize these schools as part of his system but separate from CSC. The Arizona school, however, is something that I'm not sure of. His letter to them made it seem absolute, but who knows? He might change his descision on a whim...

    I understand and give you props, TM.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  2. #12812
    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    No one has stood up to them like this before....
    You mean no one dared to until David became a convicted sex offender. Wow, what a stroke of luck for those guys!

    In any case I think the same thing that happened in Phoenix will happen at these nine schools. It will just take a little longer and all of the schools might not reopen.

    In any case if these are truly serious about wanting to be "Independent" then why do they need The"?

  3. #12813
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    You mean no one dared to until David became a convicted sex offender. Wow, what a stroke of luck for those guys!

    In any case I think the same thing that happened in Phoenix will happen at these nine schools. It will just take a little longer and all of the schools might not reopen.

    In any case if these are truly serious about wanting to be "Independent" then why do they need The"?
    Because I believe they want to be part of SD without being affiliated with CSC. If Sin Th'e owns the copyright on the art, supposedly, then they can't practice his art without his consent. They don't want to get into legal trouble, although if arizona is still teaching they might. Anyways that might be the case, that might not be... we just gotta keep watching this soap opera to find out.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  4. #12814
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    Because I believe they want to be part of SD without being affiliated with CSC.
    Don't we all. Do you think it's just as simple as walking away?

  5. #12815
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Don't we all. Do you think it's just as simple as walking away?
    Hel.l Nah! A clean split is dam.n near impossible. In reality, I think this is going to get ugly real quick.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  6. #12816
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    You mean no one dared to until David became a convicted sex offender. Wow, what a stroke of luck for those guys!

    In any case I think the same thing that happened in Phoenix will happen at these nine schools. It will just take a little longer and all of the schools might not reopen.

    In any case if these are truly serious about wanting to be "Independent" then why do they need The"?
    LOL...there have been others . Mostly just individual people that the Soards and GMT just let drift away or the Soards scared off with their tactics.

    Its going to be a difficult task...do you think anyone wants to go to .......lets say Idaho and challenge MJK for his territory?? That would not be very smart.

    They just want to be seperate from the Soards , that is it . They want to be associated with GMT but dont need to be.

  7. #12817
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Don't we all. Do you think it's just as simple as walking away?
    NOPE......Not and still teach the material .

  8. #12818
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    Hel.l Nah! A clean split is dam.n near impossible. In reality, I think this is going to get ugly real quick.
    Dude , you have no idea how ugly this is ...and getting uglier by the minute

  9. #12819
    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Dude , you have no idea how ugly this is ...and getting uglier by the minute
    I'm beginning to get a good idea with just exactly what is going on here and I'm glad I'm not directly involved.

    They're making David take a polygraph in this case as part of his plea bargain. I can think of a few other people that I would also like to see take a polygraph!

  10. #12820
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    Because I believe they want to be part of SD without being affiliated with CSC. If Sin Th'e owns the copyright on the art, supposedly, then they can't practice his art without his consent. They don't want to get into legal trouble, although if arizona is still teaching they might. Anyways that might be the case, that might not be... we just gotta keep watching this soap opera to find out.
    i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
    it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

    you may not call it shaolin do:

    ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

    you may not teach the material in the same order:

    i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

    well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

    sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

    it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

    how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

    how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

    now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
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    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  11. #12821
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    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
    it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

    you may not call it shaolin do:

    ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

    you may not teach the material in the same order:

    i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

    well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

    sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

    it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

    how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

    how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

    now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
    I actually own the book that he translated, it's called Baguazhang Lianxi Fa or "Baguazhang Practice Method". I have the translation from Joseph Crandall. I don't know if there was a copyright on the original, but if there is he and csc should be in violation of it, esp. with the csc student manual.

    I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...

    If the xingyi, bagua, and tai chi are not exclusively his, then no he cannot forbid them from teaching it. However, with only a few exceptions (seven star mantis, idk what else...) the rest are found exclusively in his repetoire and thus fit his copyright.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  12. #12822
    Do any of you "lawyers" actually know what you are talking about here?

  13. #12823
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    I'm sorry i don't don the suit and tie.. I was just expression my opinion, nothing more. btw are you??? lol
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  14. #12824
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    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    i posted exactly what sin the's copyright and trade mark say here several times.
    it is clear that sin the can not force any person to not teach any of the material.

    you may not call it shaolin do:

    ok fine so what ... i could call it shaolin dude.

    you may not teach the material in the same order:

    i say this would be hard to enforce. much of the material is from other sources such as jrq bagua. jiang wrote his book about his bagua many years ago from what i understand his daughter made the drawings of him doing his bagua for the book.

    well sin the claims he wrote "classical pakua" look at the attached picture of the notes i was given. it says "by master sin the' all rights reserved may not be reprinted with out author consent".

    sin the uses the same pictures and almost the exact same text but sin the makes some translation errors such as "wild ducks came out as a herd" instead of wild ducks come out as a flock" and small errors like that but the text is largely the same and the drawings are exactly the same.

    it is nice that he made a translation but the way he presents it is as if he wrote it.

    how could sin the stop anyone from teaching classical pakua? even if he thinks the order of moves are what is protected since the same form is available from many sources. and there are several available translations????????

    how the hell does he think he can tell people they can not teach yang tai chi? it is not "his" if in know it it is mine.

    now if a person opened a school called "shaolin do" and they taught the same things in the exact same order maybe sin the could say something but beyond that in my opinion no.
    That's what I was thinking. Can't they just change the name of the school and revise the curriculum a bit, and go on? I know there are people out there teaching material they learned from SD or CSC, and without permission. Are most just too small to be of concern, but a big group like this will bite into revenue and therefore merit attention?
    The way many of the forms are taught in the CSC's, they are different from how Sin The taught them originally anyway (to the dismay of our friends in the east who have pointed this out). Maybe that was the plan all along, the real reason for the changes in the forms, the occasional and apparently random changes made by the Soards during instructor retreat sessions. It's like insurance in case he ever tells them to cease and desist, they can say what they teach is their own and not what he has copyrighted.
    The system could do with an overhaul anyway, some revision is definately in order. If the alliance schools are all "debarred", it might be just as well for them and their students. A good instructor could put together a respectable training program by restructuring their material and changing emphasis. If they're forced to change, it might as well be a change for the better.
    Last edited by Leto; 10-03-2009 at 10:35 PM.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  15. #12825
    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    I actually own the book that he translated, it's called Baguazhang Lianxi Fa or "Baguazhang Practice Method". I have the translation from Joseph Crandall. I don't know if there was a copyright on the original, but if there is he and csc should be in violation of it, esp. with the csc student manual.

    I apologize, which pages did you post them on? There are alot of pages and I don't know where to look...

    If the xingyi, bagua, and tai chi are not exclusively his, then no he cannot forbid them from teaching it. However, with only a few exceptions (seven star mantis, idk what else...) the rest are found exclusively in his repetoire and thus fit his copyright.
    actually sin the did not use crandalls translation. as far as i understand crandall actually refereed to sin the's translation to make his own.

    the chinese from my understanding do not do the copyright thing the same as we do in the usa. i think that is even more true many years ago. so i doubt jrq had a copyright.

    i only have a small amount of knowledge about his external material but i am sure much more of it was "common" take the hua system as an example it is well known.

    chen xin jia
    all of the hsing i material
    all of the bagua material
    all of the yang tai chi material
    the 24 combo tai chi form
    5 animal frolics (5 animal dead/live training)
    hou tein chi
    shein tein chi
    buddha family fist
    i chin ching (sin the's is the only one i have found with "49" postures but most of the systems of i ching ching i have found contain similar if not identical movements/positions)
    are all examples of "common" styles that sin the claims ownership of. i would not feel any guilt to teach any of these with or with out sin the's permission.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

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