Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BoulderDawg]

I personally think that here in Boulder we should just radically change the school. To start with let's get rid of those dam gis. They are definite hottie dampers. You cannot really see a girl's butt very well with that gi top flap hanging over it.

Also we should install a bar just to make it easier to meet all the women that come in. Just to make it easier to talk about Kung Fu and other stuff. We should have ladies night with half price classes for all single girls.

I think David should change his title to the Love Master Dave and show us all how it is done!

[Tao Of The Fist]

lmao Wow... if that's the case they should add drinks into the monthy fees, have a wet sparring contest after tai chi, and redesign the female gi's to Victoria's Secret* standards.

[goju]

lmao Wow... if that's the case they should add drinks into the monthy fees, have a wet sparring contest after tai chi, and "redesign the female gi's to Victoria's Secret standards".

if that happened id rejoin in a heartbeat! LMAO!!!!
is suggest they add a grappling class as well

[One student]

That makes me very sad. I am not actively training with me teachers and haven't for over a year now. That was not because of any fundamental difference in philosophy but simply a function of increased work and family obligations, the distance involved in going to the closest regular class with any of my instructors, and a lack of desire to learn more forms. I have kept working on a select few forms (about 15) that I find useful on a number of different levels. I have cross-trained in a couple of other styles that are closer out of convenience, but I remained loyal to my original instruction and teachers. My teachers have always been good to me, have trained me properly and treated me with respect. Their instruction and martial ability is top notch. I have always felt free to express my own opinions on the art, its efficacy and the history of it even as it has evolved from my own study, research and questioning. But if Sin The' is kicking people out because they object to David Soard's morals in pleading guilty to harassment charges, then I can no longer support Shaolin-Do officially.

I have never made a dime from SD and I've never intended to. I will teach anything that I have learned to my family as I see fit because I know the material is effective. I have learned as much as I can over the past 20 years and I know how to train it, the underlying chigung, and training methodology. It is mine and I'll share it as I see fit. I will not undermine or belittle any of my instruction from my teachers, but I will not support an organization that has lost its direction so plainly.

I do this with a heavy heart, but with no reservations that I am making the right decision. It's not like I was anyone of any substance in SD. I doubt anyone outside of my own teachers will even care. It's a shame that things have gotten to the point where a misplaced sense of loyalty and monetary interest outweigh basic morals and common-sense.

JP: I would encourage you to keep an open mind about some of that. It may be simply, you didn't support "us," so I'm not supporting you -- nor allowing you to profit from me. It could be something more nefarious as to pressure, if that is possible, from Soards (which I've seen but never understood, regarding their "revolt" they got away with). There could have been a meeting and they couldn't come to terms and so his lawyer stepped in and told him he had to sent the letter immediately to prevent dilution of his intellectual property rights. Or it could just be he's taking up first for DS and SS because that's where the money is -- I hope not but I don't know. I would have thought would have been better to keep these other schools and dumping Denver and Boulder (I suspect that would have made more people happy). But there we go speculating about things we don't know. Until I do, I'm not going to guess.

And I've been this close to saying similar things over the years, but haven't yet pulled the trigger. With my distance from major schools, hasn't been a need to be "official."

BQ seems to know everything at the heart of GMT. Comments?

[One student]

this is second hand information so you know how that can go but i was told that the soards were the first to say those tai chi forms were from the shaolin temple.

i could be wrong and if i am i retract that statement.

EML was on two local (Lexington) TV stations a few months ago, regarding World Tai Chi Day activities, and stated that tai chi was invented by a monk who left the temple over Buddhist vs Taoist differences. I could be wrong, but I got the impression he was stating that it was after leaving the temple. Not that the comment is authoritative, just thought it was relevant and interesting. The video is posted on the SinThe school site.

[kwaichang]

There exists a very ancient history in China of movement systems that are associated with health and philosophy. In some sense one can see all of these as contributing to the climate in which Tai Chi was born.

From the very origins of Taoism in the sixth century BC, sages like Lao Tsu wrote in the Tao Te Ching:


Yield and Overcome;
Bend and be straight.
And
He who stands of tiptoe is not steady.
He who strides cannot maintain the pace.
In this and in the entire tenor of his writings Lao Tsu reflects the central philosophical underpinnings of Tai Chi Chuan.
Later, in the period of the Three Kingdoms (220 to 265 AD) there was a physician Hua-tu'o who relied not only on medicine but also taught the 'movements of the five creatures' -- tiger, deer, bear, ape and birds -- a system he called Wu-chi chih hsi. He believed that the body needed to be regularly exercised to help with digestion and circulation and only by doing so could a long and healthy live be achieved. He advocated a system of imitating the movements of these animals to help exercise every joint in the body. His teaching, and its connection with the movements of animals, is probably the earliest pre-cursor of Tai Chi.


Painting of Bodihdharma by Feng Tien: Ch'ing Dynasty.

In the sixth century A.D. Bodihdharma (called Ta Mo in China) came to the Shao-Lin Monastery and seeing that the monks there were in poor physical condition from too much meditation and not enough movement, his Eighteen Form Lohan Exercise. Over time these grew to be the precursors of the Wei Chia (outer-extrinsic) school of exercise, by which is meant all the schools of kung-fu and other martial art forms which take an 'external' approach. This is in contrast to the Nei Chia (internal-intrinsic) school of which Tai Chi is a member, that take a fundamentally 'internal' approach. In the eighth century AD (the Tang dynasty) philosophers like Hsu Hsuan- p'ing developed a 'Long Kung-fu' of 37 forms. Of these certain ones such as:


Play the Pi'pa
Single Whip
Step up to Seven Stars
Jade Lady Works the Shuttles,
High Pat on Horse; and
White Crane (originally Phoenix) Cools Wing
Still survive in the contemporary Tai Chi form. There were several other such forms being practiced in the eighth century (Heavenly-Inborn Style, Nine Small Heavens Style and Acquired Kung-fu) from which grew the origins of Tai Chi.

Chang San-feng.

The apocryphal founder of Tai Chi was a monk of the Wu Tang Monastery, Chang San-feng to whom have been ascribed various dates and longevity's. Some scholars doubt his historical existance, viewing him as a literary construct on the lines of Lao Tzu. Other research and records from the Ming-shih (the official chronicles of the Ming dynasty) seem to indicate that he lived in the period from 1391 to 1459 (he may have been born earlier and lived later: these are simply some dates associated with him).

Linking some of the older forms with the notion of yin-yang from Taoism and stressing the 'internal' aspects of his exercises, he is credited with creating the fundamental 'Thirteen Postures' of Tai Chi corresponding to the eight basic trigrams of the I Ching and the five elements. The eight 'postures' are:


ward-off
rollback
press
push
pull
split
elbow strike; and
shoulder strike
The five 'attitudes' are:

advance
retreat
look left
gaze right; and
central equilibrium.
His exercises stressed suppleness and elasticity and were opposed to hardness and force. They incorporated philosophy, physiology, psychology, geometry and the laws of dynamics.
His theories, writings and practices were elaborated sometime later by Wang Chung-yueh and his student Chiang Fa. Wang apparently took the thirteen postures of Chang San-feng and linked them together into continuous sequences, thus creating something which resembles the contemporary Tai Chi Chuan form. His student Chiang Fa taught Tai Chi to the villagers of a town on Honan (almost all of whom were called Chen) and thus began the first family school of Tai Chi Chuan.

Herein lies one of the most contentious and perplexing areas of Tai Chi history and scholarship. Some scholars feel that rather than bringing Tai Chi to the Chen village Chiang Fa simply discovered the Chen villagers practiciing this art. Others maintain that the Chen family's so-called 'Cannon Pounding' (Pao Chui) was a distinct martial art that undoubtedly influenced Chiang Fa's teaching but that it was not the same as Tai Chi.

Another of Wang's students was Chen Chou-t'ung who quarreled with Chiang Fa. The former then established the so-called Southern School of Tai Chi, an interesting an colourful branch of Tai Chi which subsequently disappeared. Chiang Fa continued with the mainstream 'Northern' school of Tai Chi which survives today.

Whatever their respective contributions, from Chiang-Fa and the Chen villagers in Honan emerge all of the surviving branches of Tai Chi Chuan:


One of his students, Chen You-heng, continued what is called the New Frame Style of Chen Tai Chi.

Chen Chang-hsing (1771-1853) studied under Chiang-Fa and combined the Cannon Pounding (Pao Chui) form of the Chen Family with the Tai Chi taught by Chiang-Fa. Chen Chang-hsing, in turn, was the teacher of Yang Lu-chan, the originator of the Yang Style of Tai Chi.

Another Chen family member and student of Chen Chang-hsing was Chen Gen-yun whose descendants continued the Old Frame Style of Chen Tai Chi.

Wu Quan-yu, a Manchu guard in the Imperial Palace at Beijing, was a student of both Yang Lu-chan and his son Yang Pan-hou. Wu taught it to (amongst others) his son Wu Chien-chuan (Also written as Wu Jian-quan). From this stream emerged the Wu Style of Tai Chi.

Another Chen family member was Chen Yau-pun who veered away from Chiang Fa's tradition to create the 'new' school of Tai Chi. Apparently his student Chen Quin-ping was an originator of the Zhao Bao Style of Tai Chi.

One of Chen Quin-ping's students was Li Jing-Ting who, in turn was the founder of the Hu Lei Style of Tai Chi.

A student of both Yang Lu-chan and Chen Qing-ping was Wu Yu- xiang. He taught his nephew Lee I-yu who in turn taught Hao Wei-chen. This gave rise to the Wu Shi Style (or Hao Style) of Tai Chi Chuan.

One of Hao Wei-chen's students was Sun Lu-tang who also studied Hsing-I Quan under Kuo Yun-shen and Pa Kua Chang under Cheng T'ing-hua (himself a student of Dong Hai-chuan, the founder of Pa Kua Chang). He combined these forms in the new Sun Style of Tai Chi Chuan.

These are the principal styles of Tai Chi that are in existence in the present day.
KC

[kwaichang]

I have spoken with GMT privately regarding the history of Tai Chi and the Shaolin Temple and the post earlier coincides with what he told me KC

[tattooedmonk]

You can not copyright other peoples creations.

How can you copyright all the internal material when everyone and their mother practices these forms, that were created before the time you were born?

What about the Hua??

Or Shaolin Five Animal??

You cant.

Like it says, only the order in which it is taught and obviously his image and such,

He can't copyright Shaolin, You cant copyright a kick or a punch , can you ?? NO!!

Only that which he created can he copyright ....

[kwaichang]

I agree it is like copywriting a basket ball move, remember that. There is no continuity as no 2 people will perform the technique the same way or teach it as such. KC

[bodhi warrior]

As far as copywriting some of the material. If sin the' does in fact have a copywrite of some of the forms, then he is admitting he made them up. He cannot copywrite the major forms that are taught by numerous kung fu styles, but maybe some of the material that is exclusive to SD. But even then he would have a hard time because some of that was originally taught by Hiang. The birds, cranes, mad drunk, the 4 mantis sets, some weapons, etc.

[BoulderDawg]

I would suggest all of the attorneys here brush up on their case law.

I would start by looking at cases between various dance schools concerning the use of unique moves and steps.

Personally, I have not a clue as to what can be taught and what can't. I do know there is something called public domain. In the music business once you release a song it's in the public domain. Anyone that wants to can cover that song. However when you do this you have to give the original artist credit and pay royalties.

[tattooedmonk]

I would suggest all of the attorneys here brush up on their case law.

I would start by looking at cases between various dance schools concerning the use of unique moves and steps.

Personally, I have not a clue as to what can be taught and what can't. I do know there is something called public domain. In the music business once you release a song it's in the public domain. Anyone that wants to can cover that song. However when you do this you have to give the original artist credit and pay royalties.

You dont have to be a lawyer just need todo a little research.
All the creators of many of the forms we practice are long dead , who do we pay royalties to?

We dont really learn anything that hasnt or isnt done in every other CMA/ MA school.

[Tao Of The Fist]

I have spoken with GMT privately regarding the history of Tai Chi and the Shaolin Temple and the post earlier coincides with what he told me KC

That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't explain the misnomer of calling the CMC 37 or the 24 'combined' (which is actually the beijing 24 yang set) 'temple forms'. Like I've said in a previous post, their not the only group to do so, but I'm just curious how that came about...

Correction: the other groups only call the CMC 37 a 'temple form'.

[kwaichang]

It is my understanding that the Yang Tai Chi was included in the Shaolin Monastery and its curriculum at some point. This then makes it Shaolin. Maybe not derived there but worked on there. As stated there is a connection and that is all that was claimed as I understood it and heard. KC

[tattooedmonk]

It is my understanding that the Yang Tai Chi was included in the Shaolin Monastery and its curriculum at some point. This then makes it Shaolin. Maybe not derived there but worked on there. As stated there is a connection and that is all that was claimed as I understood it and heard. KC

Thats how I understood it too.....