Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

They are six elder masters. As an owner of a school why couldn't I call up any of these guys and say, "How about doing a festival at my school."?

I think all of this in fighting can only be bad for everyone.

I agree. But, like most things in life, human ego and territorial notions overcome other notions of fairness. I don't know who started this idea of Masters in charge of certain territories. I'm sure it started in Kentucky when just about every small Kentucky town had a SD teacher. My first teacher drove 45 miles into Virginia because he couldn't teach in Kentucky (because all the other little towns had teachers already established there).

Now it has become a national phenomenon. You can't go into a territory associated with a Master and teach your own way there. I couldn't go to Texas, Kentucky or Colorado and teach without first obtaining permission of Master Schaffer, Leonard or Soard (or seeking a The' intervention) first. Maybe they would or would not have a problem with that. Maybe it would depend on if I still sought instruction from Master Mullins or is I agreed to only seeking instruction for them. Now the ego of having a teacher, who is a student of a "rival" Master teaching in an area that you are supposed to be in "charge" of. It's difficult to keep track of all this.

It's also interesting to visit the SDA (shaolin-do Association)'s website which doesn't even acknowledge certain Masters. They sometimes acknowledge "non-affiliated" schools, but they don't acknowledge all of them.

Human ego can be a terrible thing, no doubt.

[BoulderDawg]

While I was there I really tried to keep a realistic attitude about the art. I knew the lineage was mostly drummed up, I knew that the methods of teaching didnt really produce good fighters. I cringed whenever EMD would mention the 1500 year old system and how we all were going to live forever for studying it. But I could see I was benefiting from it as far as my own martial abilities and being able to move and think in new ways.

Also I think BD mentioned it before. The price to go there is significantly less than practically any other place to train in Boulder. $35 a month minumum. I think I was spending about an average of $80-$100 total with monthly fees and festival attendance and equipment purchase. That is nothing compared to what alot of places are charging.

Yes, once when David started one of his long winded speeches I was sitting on the floor and my foot fell asleep. I didn't know if I was going to be able to get up. I also chuckle at the "Take Kung Fu and live to be 96 like GM Ie." To start with that was BS in and of itself (Ie died eight years before the Soards said he did) and just any consistant exercise can only benefit a longer life.

I did like the pricing. You did not have to take the festivals or buy the weapons so $35 a month is not bad for structured workouts and a wee bit of sparring.

[BoulderDawg]

I agree. But, like most things in life, human ego and territorial notions overcome other notions of fairness. I don't know who started this idea of Masters in charge of certain territories. I'm sure it started in Kentucky when just about every small Kentucky town had a SD teacher. My first teacher drove 45 miles into Virginia because he couldn't teach in Kentucky (because all the other little towns had teachers already established there).

Now it has become a national phenomenon. You can't go into a territory associated with a Master and teach your own way there. I couldn't go to Texas, Kentucky or Colorado and teach without first obtaining permission of Master Schaffer, Leonard or Soard (or seeking a The' intervention) first. Maybe they would or would not have a problem with that. Maybe it would depend on if I still sought instruction from Master Mullins or is I agreed to only seeking instruction for them. Now the ego of having a teacher, who is a student of a "rival" Master teaching in an area that you are supposed to be in "charge" of. It's difficult to keep track of all this.

It's also interesting to visit the SDA (shaolin-do Association)'s website which doesn't even acknowledge certain Masters. They sometimes acknowledge "non-affiliated" schools, but they don't acknowledge all of them.

Human ego can be a terrible thing, no doubt.

It's funny about The'. Even before I knew about the Soard scandal I had met The' on a number of occasions and just never really warmed up to the man. Now after seeing him handle all this stuff with the Soards I feel even less respect for him.

Even if today there was another reversal and the Soards were totally kicked out of the art I don't believe I could never again be a member of a The' school.

[tattooedmonk]

GMT is a good man, he is human just like anyone else. He has made mistakes and for many reasons sometimes it is difficult for him to get involved in many issues that arise in the business that he started.

I am sure if you knew him a little better, you hadnt heard all the negative stuff that you have, etc you would like him. It is very hard for him when a lot of people around for him to have a more personal or intimate conversation with them.

I agree that the system/ business is in shambles, but I know and believe that this is the reason why he has agreed and allowed the SMGG and EMGM to take over these schools .

Do you know anything about their programs and associated schools??

They are very good business men and know what they are doing.....or so I understand. I have researched this stuff and know this for sure, based on the facts and resources that are available.

One last thing, you have to rememeber and keep in mind, is that GMT is from a foreign country and did not grow up here . Things are WAY different in Indonesia. You also have to keep in mind where he grew up and where he was transplanted to and has grown up from and with whom he has associated. He brain and mentality are different than Americans... he has ended up fostering many of our ways ...some good and some not so good....But he does learn fromhis mistakes very well

I believe he looks for the best in people, he wants to believe that everyone he trusts is looking out for his best interest ... now we now this is not the case.

These are not excuses but facts ... they all play a roll and are a factor in this equation......

Dont give up on SD or your fellow brethren. Most of us dont know each other but still feel a certain kindred spirit for one another .....

My door is always open if you make it out to LA area....

[BoulderDawg]

To start with you have to remember that all I heard about The' before I ever met him came from the Soards. They built him up like some sort of God. However I'm not that stupid and, knowing a few celebrities and how they are in private life, I knew the difference between the man and his PR is likely to be huge. I took that into account.

I guess my problem was I just never saw the passion I felt he should have for the art. On my first trip to LA I just casually asked one of the guys, knowing that The's lived just 10 miles away, "Just how often does Grandmaster make it up for regular class?" The answer was that he'd never been in regular class. Maybe it's just me but I believe that if the man truly had a passion for the art he would have been in that school every chance he got. Also, I saw a man who during festivals would arrive two hours late and take a two hour lunch break making the festival 2-3 hours longer. Absolutely no regard for any schedule his students might have. Then when he was teaching what I saw was a man bored to death just going through the motions.

These are just my observations. I'm sure others have a different take on it.

[goju]

lol theres allways an excuse for sd even when theyve dug themselves into a hole so big they aint getting out

[tattooedmonk]

To start with you have to remember that all I heard about The' before I ever met him came from the Soards. They built him up like some sort of God. However I'm not that stupid and, knowing a few celebrities and how they are in private life, I knew the difference between the man and his PR is likely to be huge. I took that into account.

I guess my problem was I just never saw the passion I felt he should have for the art. On my first trip to LA I just casually asked one of the guys, knowing that The's lived just 10 miles away, "Just how often does Grandmaster make it up for regular class?" The answer was that he'd never been in regular class. Maybe it's just me but I believe that if the man truly had a passion for the art he would have been in that school every chance he got. Also, I saw a man who during festivals would arrive two hours late and take a two hour lunch break making the festival 2-3 hours longer. Absolutely no regard for any schedule his students might have. Then when he was teaching what I saw was a man bored to death just going through the motions.

These are just my observations. I'm sure others have a different take on it.

Do you think that might be the reason why you have so much contempt for the man?? I mean , having buildt someone up to be something more than they are then actually finding out that they are just as human and normal as anyone else can have that effect on people......

As for the time thing, I understand why you feel the way you do, but I dont agree. There could be a variety of different reasons as to why time is usually not an issue (of becomes an issue depending on how you look at it).

I am sure that most of it comes from the thought that most people do not plan anything other than spending the day / weekend with the group and so it is assumed that the actual time in which things are supposed to actually happen really doesnt matter or is not a factor.

I dont think it is because he doesnt care....

Depending on how he feels and what might be going on in his life and the peoples lives around him may or may not affect his personality and state of mind when doing tests or seminars....just like anyone else


Just some thoughts and a different perspective.


one more thing, class times are approximated to insure thorough instruction.

[BoulderDawg]

Do you think that might be the reason why you have so much contempt for the man?? I mean , having buildt someone up to be something more than they are then actually finding out that they are just as human and normal as anyone else can have that effect on people......

Apparently you didn't even bother to read the last half of the first paragraph.

[BoulderDawg]

one more thing, class times are approximated to insure thorough instruction.

This statement doesn't make any sense. How does starting a festival two hours late insure thorough instruction?

Also, be it grand master or elder master festival I've never heard any instructor say, "You know you guys just aren't getting it. Let's slow it down and take a little more time here."

Usually a form will be broken down into 3 or 4 parts. the grand/elder master will stand up in front of the class and do the particular section three times. After that he will say practice and turn it over to senior students for about 20/30 minutes. During this time the master is usually BSing or gone somewhere. Then they move on to the next section. Usually it's plowing through without regard to who's getting thorough instruction.

Then I think of a form like ground monkey which is offered as a festival. Of all the people that I know who's taken that I only know one person that can actually do the form. Too much material and not enough time. The festival is worthless.

[One student]

I am sick of all this stuff. The point is now a renegade EMMullins has more area and control and he shouldnt have. Actually no {one} should. The fact that I for one cant train with the schools in Tennessee says that the open arms of MA brothers arent that open. So why didnt KY schools absorb them??? Well because they were associated with the Soards . That is why. I for one think the EM soard losing the schools is a good thing i think the EM should teach over an area but not have the right to say who trains with who and if you can open a school or not. this is not the case though. They are trying to control everything we do and say. KC

I don't understand the "I can't train" somewhere. But as far as opening a similar school very close, providing similar instruction in the same basic material, would be the school competing against itself. Both would be competing for the same "customer base," and since there are only so many of those, there would be less students at each, defeating the purpose. Unless you are Starbucks, you can't have the same product being provided right next to itself.

But, not being able to go there to participate? I don't get that -- unless it is a matter of you having to do it their way, in their school, which I guess is their right, isn't it? But another school, teaching the same (nearly) material, right next door (not literally)? Both would die.

[One student]

Hmmmmm.........

I think most of the business problems happeing now can be laid directly at the feet of The'. The man has never shown himself to be a great business man.

In any case why should a school be aligned with anyone other than GM The'? Why do they need to be groups of schools under this or that elder/senior master?

They are six elder masters. As an owner of a school why couldn't I call up any of these guys and say, "How about doing a festival at my school."?

I think all of this in fighting can only be bad for everyone.

Same reason when McDonalds sells a franchise, the buyer requires no more McDonalds' within X miles or whatever (depending on the population). The wider range, the more they pay to get it. No competition for the same product in the same geographic area.

And, why associate with a master, why not GMS himself? Same reason GM doesn't sell its own cars. He can't be everywhere, doing it all. It just got too big. There has to be a hierarchy and delegation of authority, and that equals a chain of command, starting at the bottom but also necessitates some free acting without knowledge/control at the top. Fact of llife.

And, why do you think he left Lexington in the first place? Didn't it have something to do with, "Here, you handle this 'business,' I'll teach when I can, but otherwise take care of it, its yours, I've got other things I want to do, not run a
business. GG is doing it, GM, DS/SS, etc. Why not you?"

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sin The's schools are like a cult, the more the people in it start realizing it's just garbage, the more they can't face it and the more they become "true believers".

Go to a real Chinese Martial Arts school, not a bunch of unrelated stuff that Sin The got from out of a book.

All Shaolin Do routines look bizarre and almost as bad as that other cult Green Dragon.

Bahh, you guys can't face the fact that you learned junk.

Have the guts to go to another Chinese Martial arts school that isn't Sin The related and check it out.

[BoulderDawg]

Same reason when McDonalds sells a franchise, the buyer requires no more McDonalds' within X miles or whatever (depending on the population). The wider range, the more they pay to get it. No competition for the same product in the same geographic area.

And, why associate with a master, why not GMS himself? Same reason GM doesn't sell its own cars. He can't be everywhere, doing it all. It just got too big. There has to be a hierarchy and delegation of authority, and that equals a chain of command, starting at the bottom but also necessitates some free acting without knowledge/control at the top. Fact of llife.

And, why do you think he left Lexington in the first place? Didn't it have something to do with, "Here, you handle this 'business,' I'll teach when I can, but otherwise take care of it, its yours, I've got other things I want to do, not run a
business. GG is doing it, GM, DS/SS, etc. Why not you?"

How does territorial stipulations fit into any comment I was making?

Also, using the car analogy, if my new car breaks down anywhere in the US I can carry it to the nearest dealership and they will recognize the warrenty. A membership at the Soard school does not transfer to a membership at a Leonard school.

Also, because of the size if they want to have regional quality control managers then fine. However each school should be independant.

And, as Judge Pen was talking about, there should be no reason why Master Leonard could not do a festival in Los Angeles or Master Mullins could not do a festival in Kentucky if that particular school wanted them.

[kwaichang]

1st the teacher EMMullins wont let me so there is no controversy , not even though I have trained with him previously. No biggie.

Sal i have trained at Tang Lang , Hung Gar, Chen Tai Chi and Yang Tai Chi one teacher was trained in China for 30 years. And as far as FORM goes there isnt much difference in the execution. Only small differences. Where the differences do lie is in the detail while being taught , Like opening the Kua etc and Bio Mechanics and of course applications but they are personal anyway dependent on Body type and level of understanding.
You always chime in with your derrogatory statements and try to pat yourself on the back about what you do. In an indirect way. Can you say something positive just once. I know you know your stuff but apparently you missed the class on respect and the TAO KC

[BoulderDawg]

Well, if TM is correct and you are a Soard minion then I'm pretty sure that you could only be one of four people.

One is in LA, one in Alberqueque and the final two in Boulder. My personal opinion is one of these guys is not really a bad guy but he's so dedicated to the Soards that no one in the school likes him, another guy is plain weird and worships the ground the Soards walk on, another guy I simply don't know at all and the final guy is a MFer that I would just as soon tear his f'ing head off as look at him. However I'm not going to tell you which is which.

In any case I've always tried to be fair to both sides. The problem with the Soards is that they have never really attempted to explain their actions to anyone. This makes it hard to see their side of the story.

Well, once again a little birdie fluttered down and told me all about Starr. I'll just say he IS one of the four. In fact he's the one that I don't know.

However don't think the other three have been spending their entire time just doing Kung Fu. Just today I heard an interesting story about one of the other three.

In any case I'm fairly certain all four have read this and know who they are. It ashame really to know what these guys are capable of and what they have accused certain people of doing.

Well, since we now know who Mr. Starr is I'm wondering if we will see him back here!