View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13111
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    That hardly speaks to a "new revolution and a changes that has been coming for a long time now".

    That tells me more of a story of pis poor instructors and quality control.

    Mullins and Grooms run their schools better than the Soards but I don't see The' doing anything to help the students in the Soard schools.

    Anyway you're going to have good and bad instructors in every organization. Improving the quality of instruction does not represent change and certainly not revolution.
    Dont you think that has a lot to do with it??

    Your just reading the words on the page and already have a bad taste in your mouth about all this...

    seeing is believing in this case , get out of town and be a part of experiences others are having and will be having in the future!!

    Forget the Soards schools, I thought you were done with them anyways??

    ...GMT is not involved on that level anymore.... if someone wants to find a new instructor/ master , then they can ask him or one of the many masters to help them in this area.

    as to your last sentence , yes it does.

    Dude ,you need to get over your issues about all of this ...i am more than willing to keep talking to you about all of this to help you understand and change your perception

  2. #13112
    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Forget the Soards schools, I thought you were done with them anyways??

    ...GMT is not involved on that level anymore....

    To me that also speaks to The's character. The Soard schools are operated under his name. If he doesn't care how they are run then it's time he stepped aside and get someone in there who does care.

    I have friends who still train at the schools in Colorado and LA. Is it fair that they have to attend a program that is inferior if they want to stay in the art without moving half way across the country?

    You live in LA. Do you train under Dean Ash? Sin speaks very highly of Sifu Dean!

  3. #13113
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    To me that also speaks to The's character. The Soard schools are operated under his name. If he doesn't care how they are run then it's time he stepped aside and get someone in there who does care.

    I have friends who still train at the schools in Colorado and LA. Is it fair that they have to attend a program that is inferior if they want to stay in the art without moving half way across the country?

    You live in LA. Do you train under Dean Ash? Sin speaks very highly of Sifu Dean!
    Actually, it doesnt.

    The Soards used to have a better program. It is their responsibility, not his. He is not there for the everyday test and advancements....He cares but there is only so much he can do.

    I dont know why everyone puts so much on him... its not just some local MA club anymore it is a huge business. He cant be everywhere and do everything....this is what happens when a business gets too big and gets spead thin....

    If you want to be good or great you have to find it within yourself to become better. It cant always be pushed off on other people .

    The upper level BBs need to step up and say something ..The 9 Renegades did ... it wasnt only about the case against DS.

    I dont think it is fair..... things are changing...you will see.

    i do not train under the Soards anymore. I do know of dean...many people on the Soards side say he is a good teacher and that is what GMT has to go by...

    I still know people in the art who practice under him ....some people are not happy.

    The change is coming

  4. #13114
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    I have some pictures of him, with another student.
    You keep saying this but have shown us nothing... you keep teasing and saying I will show them and what not, but havent...why??

  5. #13115
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    If EMD and EMS step down and let the school be run by the upper lvl masters I would consider going back. The only problem is that I think that the way the school has been run over the past years has rubbed off on them.

    I wouldnt expect that standards for knowledge of the material would improve. I think it would go further downhill.

    That being said I think that some of the younger blacks that are frequent instructors at the boulder and denver schools really take their training seriously and could be the ones to start implementing a more rigorous program.

    I would go back if I saw the following things:

    1. No more elder masters, as far as im concerned they are disgraced, and going to class for me is unconscionable. It would be as if Im pretending nothing happened.

    2. Actual standards for lower belt testing. There are absolutely no standards right now. No one fails tests and people pass by just being able to make motions that even slightly resemble the forms they're taught.

    3. Chin Na live training. The way Chin Na is taught there is laughable. No one resists at all and you dont get anything out of it. One day one of the first degree blacks encouraged us to actually resist. I learned more about the Chin Na applications that day than I ever had before.

    4. The end of the kool aid. No more 1500 years old this fukien shaolin temple that. Let the merits of the art stand on its own for students without the fantastical portrayals of SD being some lost art that we are only so lucky to be apart of.

    5. More of an emphasis on really learning the forms, and a structured set of partner drills to teach people applications. Instead of learning one form a month in brown belt levels, we should expand that to three months, 1 for drilling the applications, 1 for learning the form, and 1 month sparring with emphasis on the form. I think that would really get people learning it the way its intended.


    This would be cool. But I dont know whether there is anyone who could implement this other than the elder masters. I really dont think many people know and understand what they are doing anywhere near enough to teach the class in this way. I could be wrong I guess. The future might be interesting for the CSCs in boulder and denver.

  6. #13116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
    If EMD and EMS step down and let the school be run by the upper lvl masters I would consider going back. The only problem is that I think that the way the school has been run over the past years has rubbed off on them.

    I wouldnt expect that standards for knowledge of the material would improve. I think it would go further downhill.

    That being said I think that some of the younger blacks that are frequent instructors at the boulder and denver schools really take their training seriously and could be the ones to start implementing a more rigorous program.

    I would go back if I saw the following things:

    1. No more elder masters, as far as im concerned they are disgraced, and going to class for me is unconscionable. It would be as if Im pretending nothing happened.

    2. Actual standards for lower belt testing. There are absolutely no standards right now. No one fails tests and people pass by just being able to make motions that even slightly resemble the forms they're taught.

    3. Chin Na live training. The way Chin Na is taught there is laughable. No one resists at all and you dont get anything out of it. One day one of the first degree blacks encouraged us to actually resist. I learned more about the Chin Na applications that day than I ever had before.

    4. The end of the kool aid. No more 1500 years old this fukien shaolin temple that. Let the merits of the art stand on its own for students without the fantastical portrayals of SD being some lost art that we are only so lucky to be apart of.

    5. More of an emphasis on really learning the forms, and a structured set of partner drills to teach people applications. Instead of learning one form a month in brown belt levels, we should expand that to three months, 1 for drilling the applications, 1 for learning the form, and 1 month sparring with emphasis on the form. I think that would really get people learning it the way its intended.


    This would be cool. But I dont know whether there is anyone who could implement this other than the elder masters. I really dont think many people know and understand what they are doing anywhere near enough to teach the class in this way. I could be wrong I guess. The future might be interesting for the CSCs in boulder and denver.
    Everything that you just mentioned are the things that the people that split off are now focusing on. I had a very good talk with some of these teachers and they all agree on those exact points (well, Im not sure about the whole kool aid thing, but everything else...) and they are implementing those changes.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  7. #13117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tao Of The Fist View Post
    Everything that you just mentioned are the things that the people that split off are now focusing on. I had a very good talk with some of these teachers and they all agree on those exact points (well, Im not sure about the whole kool aid thing, but everything else...) and they are implementing those changes.
    Thats really good to hear. Id love to see some of their classes. I also think that it would be healthy to add some gloved contact sparring earlier in the curriculum. All I have to say is that right now I am excellent at not hitting people in the face

  8. #13118
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    You keep saying this but have shown us nothing... you keep teasing and saying I will show them and what not, but havent...why??
    I did post pieces of them! I think you even commented on them.










    I even sent the originals to Baqualin, who was supposed to show them to Sin The' and some others in Indonesia, but I never heard back.

    I haven't posted the whole pics because the source said he was going to release them himself and asked me not to, but that was like 2 years ago. Maybe it's time....
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 10-23-2009 at 03:06 PM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  9. #13119
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    I did post pieces of them! I think you even commented on them.










    I even sent the originals to Baqualin, who was supposed to show them to Sin The' and some others in Indonesia, but I never heard back.

    I haven't posted the whole pics because the source said he was going to release them himself and asked me not to, but that was like 2 years ago. Maybe it's time....
    I remember these...cool. it is about time to release them though.. the world is waiting

  10. #13120
    Quote Originally Posted by Facepalm View Post
    If EMD and EMS step down and let the school be run by the upper lvl masters I would consider going back. The only problem is that I think that the way the school has been run over the past years has rubbed off on them.

    I wouldnt expect that standards for knowledge of the material would improve. I think it would go further downhill.

    That being said I think that some of the younger blacks that are frequent instructors at the boulder and denver schools really take their training seriously and could be the ones to start implementing a more rigorous program.

    I would go back if I saw the following things:

    1. No more elder masters, as far as im concerned they are disgraced, and going to class for me is unconscionable. It would be as if Im pretending nothing happened.

    2. Actual standards for lower belt testing. There are absolutely no standards right now. No one fails tests and people pass by just being able to make motions that even slightly resemble the forms they're taught.

    3. Chin Na live training. The way Chin Na is taught there is laughable. No one resists at all and you dont get anything out of it. One day one of the first degree blacks encouraged us to actually resist. I learned more about the Chin Na applications that day than I ever had before.

    4. The end of the kool aid. No more 1500 years old this fukien shaolin temple that. Let the merits of the art stand on its own for students without the fantastical portrayals of SD being some lost art that we are only so lucky to be apart of.

    5. More of an emphasis on really learning the forms, and a structured set of partner drills to teach people applications. Instead of learning one form a month in brown belt levels, we should expand that to three months, 1 for drilling the applications, 1 for learning the form, and 1 month sparring with emphasis on the form. I think that would really get people learning it the way its intended.


    This would be cool. But I dont know whether there is anyone who could implement this other than the elder masters. I really dont think many people know and understand what they are doing anywhere near enough to teach the class in this way. I could be wrong I guess. The future might be interesting for the CSCs in boulder and denver.
    Gee......Where to begin!

    The school being taken over by another Master?

    To start with there are only two other masters that come to the Boulder school with any regularity. One guy, the younger Master, is a great guy. He's dedicated and knows the material. And, believe you me, that if he was at the school there would be no more of this wimppyass warm up and conditioning. He would put you through the trails. Problem is that even under the best of circumstances I'm not sure that he would want to take over the school. However I think he would be the best choice especially since he's not exactly the Soard's favorite student!

    The older Master...No. The guy doesn't even know the forms much less being able to teach them. When he leads class it's "Keep me honest. Tell me what I'm doing wrong." and usually he has to stopped 3 or 4 times so students can correct him.

    Standards for testing? Yeah Right! I'll believe that when I see it.

    Somebody else running the school? Possible but I don't see either one of the two guys that are currently running it taking over. To start with both are total worshippers of the Soards. It just wouldn't work. Also, in the current scandal that's going on I've seen both of these guys lash out against people who criticized the Soards. There's been enough of that. And personally I think both of these guys would leave if the Soards were booted.

    ***********

    Anyway we can shoot the breeze all day long. Truth is nothing is going to change at the Boulder school. The Soards will run that school until they go broke or die.

  11. #13121
    Who are the people in the pictures. I'm assuming the older guy is suppose to be Ie.

    The pics are such poor quality I think it will be hard to make a positve ID. Where are they from?

  12. #13122
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    I have some pictures of him, with another student.
    Ok .. I'll bite. Do explain .... or at least explain in PM.

    And by the way ... how's it going? Been a long time since I've been here. I'm glad I missed that sticky discussion above.


    Edit: Oops .. I see that you have posted them. TOO COOL!!

    I'll take it with a grain of salt, but I want to believe that is him. Strange you would come by them and we haven't. Do you have these in better quality? Can you divulge how you came across these?

    Thanks man.
    Last edited by themeecer; 10-23-2009 at 04:19 PM.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  13. #13123
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    I have

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Sin The's schools are like a cult, the more the people in it start realizing it's just garbage, the more they can't face it and the more they become "true believers".

    Go to a real Chinese Martial Arts school, not a bunch of unrelated stuff that Sin The got from out of a book.

    All Shaolin Do routines look bizarre and almost as bad as that other cult Green Dragon.

    Bahh, you guys can't face the fact that you learned junk.

    Have the guts to go to another Chinese Martial arts school that isn't Sin The related and check it out.
    After spending years with SD, I relocated, spent a year in with what professed to be a tradional Chinese Kung Fu school, Xth Generation Grandmaster from China, in Tien Shien Pai. Can it get much more traditional or pure than that? I enjoyed it very much, would still be there but for other committments and travel. I liked it mostly I think because the forms and training were so similar to what I was in at SD. No, not the same forms, names, or that. Similar stances, punches, kicks, techniques. Very easily transitioned to those forms; Chin Na techniques taught at same level. Weapons progressed almost the same. I attended that School's weekend Hsing Ie seminar, very similar, nearly identical, to initial training in Hsing Ie as taught by GM Sin The. I did what you suggest and found just the opposite of what you are describing. Was it a fluke? Or do you suggest I try another one, or another one, until I find one so different that I am as offended as you are, by whatever experience you had?
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  14. #13124
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    Territories

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    How does territorial stipulations fit into any comment I was making?

    Also, using the car analogy, if my new car breaks down anywhere in the US I can carry it to the nearest dealership and they will recognize the warrenty. A membership at the Soard school does not transfer to a membership at a Leonard school.

    Also, because of the size if they want to have regional quality control managers then fine. However each school should be independant.

    And, as Judge Pen was talking about, there should be no reason why Master Leonard could not do a festival in Los Angeles or Master Mullins could not do a festival in Kentucky if that particular school wanted them.
    I thought I was responding to the question of why a teacher cannot go into another teacher's area to open a school. If there are statistically X people likely to participate in martial arts, or Chinese martial arts, two schools offering the same product can at best get 50% of that target, unless they under cut each other, then the other school gets even less than that, the quality suffers, next thing you know, it IS McDonalds. I meant nothing else.

    Independence? I guess that depends on who has negotiated the rights for that territory, and can they branch out themselves, thereby not competing with itself but streamlining.

    Otherwise, you are so right. Until the first school broke off from Lexington (CSC?), I could (and did) got to at least four different schools, four different teachers, never a problem. This stuff I keep hearing about someone can't go from one of GMS's schools to another, there is no reason for that. EML should be respencted and welcomed at any school associated with GMS, and the other way around as well -- and from what I've heard here, West students are treated well when they go East, but not the other way around. I could be wrong. But right or wrong, you are correct, and that is an undeniable flaw in the System if any teacher would exclude or treat differently any of GMS's students in their school, and be permitted to do it.

    Has anyone ever heard of any invitation to a distant teacher to come and share, or participate, or ask to, and it was refused? That would be wrong, too. I was always taught, and did it, that if an elder rank (and I mean by experience, not necessarily belt) came into my class, i ofered it to them to take it over. As JP also said, "ego" too often overrode ethics, loyalty, and respect.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  15. #13125
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    He sent me these July 4th, 2007. I think the statute of limitations is up...

    I put the watermark on so these don't turn up on a bunch of SD websites...







    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

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