Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

Try this then
any good style of martial art should have a healthy balance of both internal and external principles, and no martial art, regardless of its technique or training, is purely internal or external. These two principles are inseparable, from the readily observable to the unperceivable, in a dynamic, mutually dependent relationship.

Hard and soft, relaxed and taught, up and down, opening and closing, thought and action. . . Yin and Yang- principles manifest in the training theories and methods, techniques, and philosophy of all styles of martial art; however, one should not become too dogmatic about use of this terminology

Stepping should be fast but rooted . If this isnt correct then I am at a loss as to what the heck you want. KC
BTW this is what I have said and included the 8 principles and 4 methods.

Try telling him in the way he wants you to tell him, using his own words......read his articles ..... What he wants to hear is the regergitation of his writings. He wants to hear it in his exact term phrasing ( dogma) or he is going to argue and say that what you are posting is not what he is talking about. so, basically he has proven that we do not know anything about CMA or practice CMA .

once again Sal , I do not understand why someone with as much knowledge, skill and following, etc. seems to feel the need to bash other people in what they do.

Shaolin is a name,so is kung fu , a punch is a punch and a kick is kick, many styles do them the same, many of them do them differently . Everyone has their own opinion and perspective on things . If you want to offer information and show people the error of their ways .....I believe that you need to find a better method.

If you want to teach, wait for the student to come to you , do not go looking for them ....because you will never find them

[kwaichang]

TTM, I dont care if if Sal was next door and was begging me to be his student, i never would . What is missing most from him is Humility for without it no one can become a great MA. The one we learn the most from is sometimes the the one with the least to offer. KC
BTW i would never be able to regurgitate his stuff as I would only buy a book of his if it was on sale at the dollar store. KC

[SDJerry]

o h my god. No, this stuff is all wrong. It's self insighted stuff he created, it's not the real Chinese martial arts concepts.
I can count at least 8 things right off the bad that are not correct.
This is called Zombie KF by the old timers that are over 70 years old that I have ever trained with.

This is karate influenced southern chinese folk stuff, as all Shalin Do stuff is (I can't bear to say Shaolin and desecrate it). Not true Chinese martial arts.

It's wrong, wrong, wrong on so many counts.

Plus, if this is meant to be advanced, I don't know what to say.

We were doing proper body alignment work first before we ever learned any routines.

"Dead man walking" as much teachers would say for zombie style KF.

I don't know how I can even discuss it without actually teaching.

"Let them eat dog poop if they want to eat dog poop" is what another of my teachers said about correcting others bad KF (with stronger word for poop).

I'm sorry, you don't want to hear it and so will deny it.

The fact that you don't realize and thus can't tell me why this stuff is incorrect is disturbing.

Please tell me:

1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork?

Hell, if I'm wrong I'll just ask Sifu hehehe

1. They're all Chinese
2. You have gates and nothing can strike you without entering a gate. When you strike you open a gate. Most forms, if you pay attention, strike and then cover that gate. Also in kungfu you have long range and short range techniques. You should know which are which. Lastly, deception plays a large roll in cma. If you want to go high you must go low, you attack the right by moving left.

3. Power is generated from the earth through the legs, hips, torso, and so forth. Footwork is key because if your base is not solid, you can not generate proper power. Also, you should not lean into your punches or fully extend your am. The shoulder should stay packed. Most importantly, the hips drive everything. Stay loose until impact

4. All fighting styles usually adopt a triangular method for footwork. My Sifu explains that not all styles are truly developed for fighting.

I don't know the exact 4 answers you're looking for but there you go hehehe. That's my attempt to answer. Sifu never really said... Now we will learn the 4 main principles fo cma

[kwaichang]

No we will learn Sals interpretation of the 4 main tenets etc. KC

[goju]

TTM, I dont care if if Sal was next door and was begging me to be his student, i never would . What is missing most from him is Humility for without it no one can become a great MA. The one we learn the most from is sometimes the the one with the least to offer. KC
BTW i would never be able to regurgitate his stuff as I would only buy a book of his if it was on sale at the dollar store. KC

lmao!!!!! yeah talk about humility you old fool look at your post

yeah im sure sals crying under his bed because you wouldnt teach him aahahahahhaha

guys you sd people are like the kid in school with a "kick me" sign taped to his back and you cant figure out why everyone in class is laughing at you

trust me no one wants your instruction bubba

[Sal Canzonieri]

KC,
Those four questions that Sal asked do have a common answer for all systems that claim the content SD does. It is not a different chef, different recipe situation. It's basic foundational knowledge of CMA.

Having seen SD first hand, it is a mish mash of stuff, often contradictory material and has a strong JMA stamp on it. This is common in SE Asia - for a variety of reasons you can read about in Don Draeger's Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia. (there are also closely preserved systems - heck Mustika Kwitang Silat is pure early 1900's Nanquan)

Not coming close on those four questions after decades in SD simply demonstrates that SD is not 'pure' CMA, nor is it really CMA anymore. It is it's own thing.

Good or bad, I leave that up to you to decide.

Exactly, if the had called it anything else rather than using Shaolin in the name, no one would care that what junk they were teaching people who didn't know better.
Karate has this problem all the time, loads of made up hodgepodge garbage karate masquerading as traditional "secret" super rare material.

[Lokhopkuen]

No we will learn Sals interpretation of the 4 main tenets etc. KC

Are U in LA now KC? Let's hang out PM me.


Bad Goju Bad! LOL!

[goju]

i dont think kwai ever really knows where he is lol
you know how the elderly are prone to dementia

[Sal Canzonieri]

Asking a vague question and expecting a verbatum answer does not indicate it doesnt exist or isnt in SD. It may not be demonstrated but it is there. I researched my answers before giving them and on 3 different occasions the answers were confirmed by Chinese Masters and sources. It is like me asking what is the primary shoulder depressor while doing a push up/ 100 therapists at least 10 different ways to say it. KC
Not meaning to argue but 15 years of my background is in JMA and SD aint that.

HAHHHAAAA, "vague question"?? It's STANDARD INFORMATION.

It's clear you do "stuff" and don't know WHY it is done (if you even were taught anything of real use and value in SD).

The four questions can be answered in short simple clear and concise answers, there is no mystery to them if someone really learned and understood traditional CMA.

1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork?

Without giving out the answers, I will tell you a little about the questions:

1. ALL CMA is based on one cardinal idea that separates it from all other martial arts in the world. And real traditional Shaolin Quan made it into a science and an art form by the end of the Qing Dynasty.

2. ALL CMA has a main strategy because of the conditions people lived under historically in China.

3. The main important body mechanics are what makes all the movements efficient and effective, and after 4,000+ years, they have been proven over and over.

Not doing them makes people do dance moves rather than self defense. Heck, knowing them will even make dance moves usable for self defense. I always ask new students if they know how to dance and I show them how to use these movements to help them undersand the martial arts they will be learning, for example the Tango, etc.

4. CMA footwork has specific methods and not doing them weakens one's postures and transition movements beyond repair. In fact, old masters look for these clues when watching you perform a routine, they watch your feet to see if you really learned stuff or just half a s s ed junk.

You either have an understanding about how and why the CMA routines are composed as they are or you just don't (because you never were told and were never given a chance to learn them).

[Sal Canzonieri]

Then you tell us what is the answer then. Bcause 5 Chinese masters and sources cant be WONG haha KC

You don't understand the questions, so you don't know what to ask.

[Leto]

I would be interested to see the answers people provide for these four questions in the main kung fu forum. Are we sure all those people who practice different varieties of "real" CMA will come up with the exact same rote answers for each of those questions, exactly as they were presented here? Of course, the experiment won't work if everyone is following this thread and have collaborated on the "correct" answers. It's easy to pick on SD, since it's obvious that there is so much wrong with the system. But I wonder, will someone from southern mantis/Chow Ga, or tibetan white crane/Hop Ga, all say exactly the same things? Or how about Yang taijiquan and Hung Ga? The answers may be similar, but does everyone really have rote answers prepared, which they learned verbatim from their instructor?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Try this then
any good style of martial art should have a healthy balance of both internal and external principles, and no martial art, regardless of its technique or training, is purely internal or external. These two principles are inseparable, from the readily observable to the unperceivable, in a dynamic, mutually dependent relationship.

Hard and soft, relaxed and taught, up and down, opening and closing, thought and action. . . Yin and Yang- principles manifest in the training theories and methods, techniques, and philosophy of all styles of martial art; however, one should not become too dogmatic about use of this terminology

Stepping should be fast but rooted . If this isnt correct then I am at a loss as to what the heck you want. KC
BTW this is what I have said and included the 8 principles and 4 methods.

This is saying nothing. This is like new age Bruce Lee stuff, who never finished learning CMA and then tried to reinvent the wheel.
Say the above with a Elmer Fudd Bruce Lee accent and see how funny it is.

[BoulderDawg]

I'm interested in knowing how this guy knows what someone did 4,000 years ago.

Truth be known, I seriously doubt, considering the troubles in China, that anything has been passed down in the past 100 years...much less 4,000.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
TTM, I dont care if if Sal was next door and was begging me to be his student, i never would . What is missing most from him is Humility for without it no one can become a great MA. The one we learn the most from is sometimes the the one with the least to offer. KC
BTW i would never be able to regurgitate his stuff as I would only buy a book of his if it was on sale at the dollar store. KC

lmao!!!!! yeah talk about humility you old fool look at your post

yeah im sure sals crying under his bed because you wouldnt teach him aahahahahhaha

guys you sd people are like the kid in school with a "kick me" sign taped to his back and you cant figure out why everyone in class is laughing at you

trust me no one wants your instruction bubba

WOW! Me take lessons from him?

What's humility got to do with any of this anyway?
This is all words on a screen, no one is hearing tone of voice or seeing body language. People project their own emotions to the words they see on the screen.

What, we should be all passive aggressive and not "hurt people's feelings"?

IF I REALLY CARE ABOUT PEOPLE< I should tell the truth and face the consequences.
"A man advised is half saved" says a famous proverb.

A guarantee you that one day of lessons with me and you will cry because of how much time and effort you have wasted up til then.

I've had plenty of people who learned fast food martial arts visit my classes and be all "expert". I politely ask the to hit me and I take them down, slowly, easily, and without their being able to resist and gently place them on the floor to show control and compassion. Then they always apologize and say they are never going back to their previous school again. Not that they go to mine either (maybe they are too embarassed?). I like work with people who want a PHD in martial arts, who have already trained a long time, sometimes in a non CMA, and want to have a deep understanding about WHY besides HOW the movements of CMA are the way they are.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm interested in knowing how this guy knows what someone did 4,000 years ago.

Truth be known, I seriously doubt, considering the troubles in China, that anything has been past down in the past 100 years...much less 4,000.

EVERY traditional CMA routine and style was based on an earlier one.

The oldest CMA is Shuai Jiao (what it is called today), whose ideas and methods are over 4,000 years old. It has influenced the historical development of just about every CMA in some way, directly or indirectly. EVERY good traditional CMA understood it and used it as part of their training. And often this is still true today.

The other major influence on all CMA style and routines is over 3,000 years old and comes from military fighting methods, such as sword, knife, staff, and spear.
Its techniques and methods have shaped the empty hand routines of all CMA, including their strategy.