View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Look, it's very simple:

    People know that Sin The's / SD routines came from books and videos because all public versions of routines are MARKED with purposefully implanted incorrect postures here and there or missing some postures or added in postures. To ensure that people who learned solely from books can be discovered.
    So, the SD routines show these marks. Hence, people who learned from actual teachers know that those particular routines are being done just like the marked routine in the book or video.

    A lot of Sd routines are labeled as Shaolin, but they aren't at all and were never taught in any Shaolin temple or afflicated temple or school. For example, all his Hua Quan routines are from Shandong province schools, and clearly show the marks that were implanted in the books published on these routines.
    Well that should be simple enough to point out, right? What are the marks and where are examples of it occuring in SD. If you're just going to say "people know" without documentation of the marks and where they show up in the form, then that opinion does not have credibility.

    By the way, where are they transcripts from that lawsuit in Kentucky? Or was it Tennessee? Or do you know.

    You're a historian. Please cite your sources.

    If you can't then please say this is what you believe but do not know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  2. #13262
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Well I can only hope you are the one who said angles as I didnt. Concepts are subjective and open to interpretation. and can be applied to anything like dance as you said. BTW i hope you are a better MA than you are a Musician , I listened to that mess from the Frankenstein group, total mess/noise. But then that is subjective much like your opinions. KC
    BTW you should stick to research one of the premises of the training you cited was Conditioning and wwhat I saw in the members of your band I would say a few too many Hotdogs. with chili
    You are full of baloney in everything you ever say.

    I'm 50 years old. My band has been playing for 20 years, we have over 100 records out on 40 different labels from all over the world. We play all over the world and played large festivals with many famous bands, and we do very well. Not too many bands have achieved the level of success we have. And, many famous bands cite our band are one of their favorite bands.
    Your personal musical tastes have nothing to do with whether people from all over the world like our music or not. Even my previous bands were successful and have been featured in music documentaries. I've been on tv and in films and interviewed in documentaries.

    I've written many books on many topics - all published, published much artwork, leaned martial arts since 1975, wrote music for 100 records, have songs on tv shows and film sountracks, and I've done much more, even raised a family.

    I've done more than you ever will do.

    Again, only you are idiotic enough to make this personal.

    Why? Because the TRUTH BURNS. You surely must be fitting in those shoes I laid out there and they surely must fit, are else none of this stuff wouldn't be hurting you so much.

    Brainwashed Zombie.

    Dead Man Walking.

    That's all you will ever be.

    The most you can hurl at me is that I am not "humble".

    Oh, boo hoo, little kitty SD karate fu man has his feelings hurt and feels inferior.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-26-2009 at 02:50 PM.

  3. #13263
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    You dare to even talk about Shoto kan, you know little about it or you wouldnt say SD has it. KC Karate is not even hinted at in SD sorry. BTW you never answered my questions what are the 5 sources of power in JKarate???? anyone KC
    You don't know how to read too?

    I didn't say anywhere that SD has Shotokan, please I would never disparage Shotokan that way, hah hah. SD has fake American Karate Fu, just like you.

  4. #13264
    Are you guys happy now?

    You've just gave him what he wants!

  5. #13265
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    Sal

    Show me one SD's hua forms (you tube or whatever) that have the "phoney marks" in them. Show me documentation of the marks that are "phony." Easy enough right? You said they are there. Documentation please.

    And let's not get into ad hominem attacks. You're 50 years old for pete's sake, aren't we above name-calling?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  6. #13266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Well that should be simple enough to point out, right? What are the marks and where are examples of it occuring in SD. If you're just going to say "people know" without documentation of the marks and where they show up in the form, then that opinion does not have credibility.

    By the way, where are they transcripts from that lawsuit in Kentucky? Or was it Tennessee? Or do you know.

    You're a historian. Please cite your sources.

    If you can't then please say this is what you believe but do not know.
    I never kept any copies of transcripts, I read them on Usenet, a long time ago.
    And whether it was Kentucky or Tennessee, I don't remember, it was too long ago. Look, plenty of people know it happened, and it's a fact. You do the research, I don't have the time or care to. Sorry.

    I'm certainly not going to point out where the marks are in the routines.
    That's the whole point of marks, isn't it? People spend lots of time and money going to real teachers who teach real forms, why should I betray them?

    No disrespect to you, you seem like a decent and rational person, who is just trying to sincerely have a discussion about things. I understand where you are coming from, so please you understand.

    There's plenty of threads here in this forum where we all have discussed marks in routines, for years now. I'm not the only person that has ever posted about it.
    And in other forums at other sites, I also saw other people mentioning that marks were shown in all the non-Shaolin SD sets that must have come from books. I haev a vast library of martial arts books, the marks are easy to see if you know the forms.

  7. #13267
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    And let's not get into ad hominem attacks. You're 50 years old for pete's sake, aren't we above name-calling?
    Yeah, you big poo poo head. (I'm not 50 yet so I'm not above it yet. )
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  8. #13268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    I never kept any copies of transcripts, I read them on Usenet, a long time ago.
    And whether it was Kentucky or Tennessee, I don't remember, it was too long ago. Look, plenty of people know it happened, and it's a fact. You do the research, I don't have the time or care to. Sorry.

    I'm certainly not going to point out where the marks are in the routines.
    That's the whole point of marks, isn't it? People spend lots of time and money going to real teachers who teach real forms, why should I betray them?

    No disrespect to you, you seem like a decent and rational person, who is just trying to sincerely have a discussion about things. I understand where you are coming from, so please you understand.

    There's plenty of threads here in this forum where we all have discussed marks in routines, for years now. I'm not the only person that has ever posted about it.
    And in other forums at other sites, I also saw other people mentioning that marks were shown in all the non-Shaolin SD sets that must have come from books. I haev a vast library of martial arts books, the marks are easy to see if you know the forms.
    See Sal, I have done the research on the lawsuit and you're wrong on that point, yet you talk like you know it to be so. That's why I'm asking you to back up what you say.

    Point out one mark-just one-that shouldn't betray any trust should it. Or link me to a site where they did point them out? I understand the concept behind them. Heck, I've seen schools steal SD's unique material (shocker I know). I know teachers that mix up routines at demonstrations so the form can't be learned from a video. I understand the concept, I'd just like to see and example.

    Do you know Yi Lu Hua Quan? Have you seen SD's version? Please provide me an example of a move that's "marked" that is present in SD's form?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  9. #13269
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Is that a good thing?? How drunk??
    Not really... he blacked it a bit right before we were heading out for the evening to a bar there in K'ville.

    How drunk... 1/5 of SoCo Black in about 30 minutes...
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  10. #13270
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    I said music is subjective heck I think U2 sucks too. But I like Mozart, go figure. So Sal what about 1st road of Hua I would like to know if there is a mark there, also how do you differentiate from a screwed up move or a mark. ?? Now this is an honest question . Can you answer it or are you going to BS your way out of it?? You say SD forms arent the real deal you site marks show us just one and we will kowtow to your superior ability to find and hit the mark haha. So what say you? With your vast library , but please explain how it is a mark and not just performer error KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  11. #13271
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    The book?

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Well that should be simple enough to point out, right? What are the marks and where are examples of it occuring in SD. If you're just going to say "people know" without documentation of the marks and where they show up in the form, then that opinion does not have credibility.

    By the way, where are they transcripts from that lawsuit in Kentucky? Or was it Tennessee? Or do you know.

    You're a historian. Please cite your sources.

    If you can't then please say this is what you believe but do not know.
    To second JP: I've heard the "learned it all from books and videos" before, but in all the years that has been around, I've never seen anyone cite me one name or show me one page of any such book, or video. In fact, when someone has tried to cite one, a time or two GM Sin was teaching the material BEFORE the book was published (as I recall). I'd still like to see all (or one of) those "books" I've heard so much about.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  12. #13272
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    And more re books and videos

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    I never kept any copies of transcripts, I read them on Usenet, a long time ago.
    And whether it was Kentucky or Tennessee, I don't remember, it was too long ago. Look, plenty of people know it happened, and it's a fact. You do the research, I don't have the time or care to. Sorry.

    I'm certainly not going to point out where the marks are in the routines.
    That's the whole point of marks, isn't it? People spend lots of time and money going to real teachers who teach real forms, why should I betray them?

    No disrespect to you, you seem like a decent and rational person, who is just trying to sincerely have a discussion about things. I understand where you are coming from, so please you understand.

    There's plenty of threads here in this forum where we all have discussed marks in routines, for years now. I'm not the only person that has ever posted about it.
    And in other forums at other sites, I also saw other people mentioning that marks were shown in all the non-Shaolin SD sets that must have come from books. I haev a vast library of martial arts books, the marks are easy to see if you know the forms.
    But, when you are citing other posts and threads, and they just repeat the same rumors and innuendos, also without proof, people start thinking, it must be true. You must be part politician, thinking if the same thing is said over and over it becomes the truth. But where is book? The video? And, how do we know the book or video came first? How does someone know it didn't come from the same source GM Sin got his instruction on it, not the other way around?

    I do my best to debunk charlatans for a living. I just don't take "believe me, me and all my freinds know its true" at face value.

    I don't care about a "mark." I can see a book and see if it is the form I know or not, and go from there. Although, more often than not, they ALL have variations. Even those multiple videos Sal posted of "true" tai ji quan: in each one each "Master" was doing the postures with different positions, timing, angles, combinations, and in different sequence, than the other one. In fact, I have yet to see one "good" practioner do it just like another one. Wrong? No. Different? Yes. NOT the same thing. One copying the other, or all from a common source? I wasn't there, I have no time machine, I don't know and never will. Neither will anyone else, other than the source itself.

    I may be no one and may know nearly nothing. But I know at one point in Sal's posts, I was thinking, I'm going to take a couple days off, go to his school (with his permission), and ask for that "one day" of lessons that he says will reveal how much time has been wasted in other schools. I also have to say, although I doubt it means anything, that after the name calling and bickering, I don't think I would waste my time, that is not an attitude, especially in a teacher, I would want to have given to me, or give to someone else.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  13. #13273
    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    But,I was thinking, I'm going to take a couple days off, go to his school (with his permission), and ask for that "one day" of lessons that he says will reveal how much time has been wasted in other schools. I also have to say, although I doubt it means anything, that after the name calling and bickering, I don't think I would waste my time, that is not an attitude, especially in a teacher, I would want to have given to me, or give to someone else.
    I have no interest in going to his church...err school!

    And they call SD a cult!

  14. #13274
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    the yang tai chi i was taught at sd would point to it be lifted off of a book

    they had us do really loud inhaling exhaling( which ive never seen any noteworthy tai chi master do ) they didnt show us any of the principles behind tai chi they just had us do the forms and even then they were done way too fast

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

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  15. #13275
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    Here's some more answers to the questions, from another forum


    1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts CMA)?

    Well they all come from China, they all have (to varying degrees) Kicking, Punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao

    2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

    to render the other guy incapable of fighting

    3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

    Different styles, different rules (if there are actually any rules that is) also IMA is different form EMA

    First, a dicussion of mechanics was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must say nothing. And secondly, you must be a CMA person for the rules to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the rules are more what you'd call guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome to CMA


    4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork? Please tell me:

    It varies form style to style.

    Bagua is not like Xingyiquan which is not like taiji which is not like Shaolin which is not like Wing Chun which is not like Sanshou.



    1- My 'insert style' is better than yours.
    2- Same universal strategery found in all martial arts. ;-)
    3- Move from dan tien & keep body alignment.
    4- Each style has different footwork principles. For example, Tai Chi does not double weight. While Hung Ga footwork is built upon a strong horse stance.



    1- What is the major tenet in common with all Chinese martial arts (CMA)?

    My lineage is better than your lineage.

    2 - What is the main strategic points of CMA?

    To prove my lineage is better than your lineage.

    3 - What are the main important body mechanics rules of CMA?

    To turn my nose up in disgust when your lineage is mentioned, and smile in your face and then hurt you if you question my lineage.

    4 - What is the most important things to note about CMA footwork? Please tell me:

    The founder of your lineage had no feet, so of course my lineage has better footwork.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

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