View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13411
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    i understand it clearly i see a very stiff asian man performing with invisible nunchuks

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

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  2. #13412
    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    why? what do you think the video shows that sin the' would not like? why would sin the not want people to see him perform?
    The answer to that is "No, The' would NOT like to know that he is being filmed".

    In fact, this is a good example of the culture he instills in the schools. Notice this guy said "They should have gotten his permission". He/she was truly upset that they dare film the GM.

    Truth is it was a public demonstration. They didn't need his permission.

    One time in Boulder a nine year old kid grabbed a camera during practice hour and was going around having a good time taking pictures. Jesus, you would have thought some rival school had sent a professional photographer in there to steal forms by the reaction of the people at the front desk. They started yelling and screaming for her to get out of the school and turn that camera OFF!

    Even during test, people like to film their relatives and friends. They tolerate this but they absolutely hate it.

    By the way, I have some good video of The' acutally teaching a form! I'm not going to release it but I figure it upsets them just knowing that it's out there!

  3. #13413
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    My response to Bruce

    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    "why? what do you think the video shows that sin the' would not like? why would sin the not want people to see him perform?"

    Its not a matter of what he would like, but as a matter or respect, I would not post video of YOU without your permission, nor post it in a way or with comments that you have not given me permission to do. And I may welll do a form or exercise one way for one audience, and another way for a different audience or for a different purpose, if I knew where it was going to be seen. He was showing an audience of his own potential students a small preview of something new he was teaching. It was posted, and then commented upon, as though that was the only and ultimate representation of the entire system and all of its aspects and demonstrated as if he was fighting or teaching it at that moment. May not have been fair.

    "from a practical self defense stand point i think it is not realistic to expect to hit a series of pressure points against a resisting attacker. if self defense is not your goal in training that style i guess it is fine... if you disagree please point me in the direction of a single person who can do it."

    No question, there is an entirely legitimate debate about the virtue of pressure point fighting. I am still considering the virtue of punching someone in the throat as hard and direct as I can, versus a focused two finger or dragon fist or phoenix eye or even direct punch strike to stomach point 9, for example. I entirely concede that is a legitimate debate. It may be that one whose physical skills may limit ability to do one (punch out) versus direct strike to a focused point. And the debate of disruption of body functions and systems by repeated coordinated sequenced strikes to particular points, dim mak/che ma, etc. It may well be also a way of fighting that a person can be disabled and stop fighting by a strike to point, as opposed to doing serious physical lasting injury by a punch, chop, kick, etc. Could it be a more pacifistic fighting style? Or a more deadly? I concede that is a legitimate debate, but practicing and studying the style is no more useless than practicing spear or hook swords or a lot of other exotic kung fu systems. It has its purposes.

    "i have seen the whole thing very clearly. dont make excuses............"
    Not excuses, except to respond to someone who described it as random punching or something like that, which it was not and I meant to point that out (which I could not tell from watching the video but know only because I've been to the classes). I will not judge a video performance of a method I have not studied and I am not familiar with, without conversing with someone who is to explain it to me. I wouldn't do that with many of the more exotic TCMA material, some of which I have only seen glimpses of, it would be too close minded of me to assume because it is not performed like something I am more familiar with it is wrong. I am also not so naive to think that a demonstration at an in-house tournament gathering is intended to show everything there is about the form or style for training or application purposes. That gets into the "demonstration" versus "exhibition" terms, doesn't it?

    So yes I am defending, but only because some of the comments, not necessarily yours, demonstrated rash judgment, lack of understanding, and close-mindedness. Not that Meteor Fist is the greatest system of self defense ever invented, but that it is what it is, which is not fully reperesented by a minute of video in that context.

    And as for internal part of it, I don't think it is revealing any secret that its history is said to be derived from selected methods of Pa Kua Chang, Hsing Ie, and Tai Chi Chuan. both as to body mechanics, fa jing, and chi kung. I'm not saying its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that it is something different and is worthy of study and practice, depending on one's likes and capabilities. That's all.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  4. #13414
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    Filming

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    The answer to that is "No, The' would NOT like to know that he is being filmed".

    In fact, this is a good example of the culture he instills in the schools. Notice this guy said "They should have gotten his permission". He/she was truly upset that they dare film the GM.

    Truth is it was a public demonstration. They didn't need his permission.

    One time in Boulder a nine year old kid grabbed a camera during practice hour and was going around having a good time taking pictures. Jesus, you would have thought some rival school had sent a professional photographer in there to steal forms by the reaction of the people at the front desk. They started yelling and screaming for her to get out of the school and turn that camera OFF!

    Even during test, people like to film their relatives and friends. They tolerate this but they absolutely hate it.

    By the way, I have some good video of The' acutally teaching a form! I'm not going to release it but I figure it upsets them just knowing that it's out there!
    Here is an example of someone going out of their way to look at the most negative aspect they can of anything. "Filming is bad because it exposes one to criticism." I've gone to other performances, would have loved to have filmed it and taken it home and watched it over and over, for free. The people who perform and demonstate don't appreciate that, and for good reason. Right or wrong, what he teaches is his livelihood, and filming it, without permission, invades the rights in his material and his performance. Why do you think martial artists sell videos and DVD's? Why don't we all just go to a demonstration, seminar, movie, play, just film it from a distance or inside, and take it home, share it with others. Or bootleg the DVD/video. They don't mind that do they? One doesn't need video evidence to be criticized. This entire thread is proof of that.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  5. #13415
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    there was no rash judgement is was a god awful form that looks like it was made up and was preformed god awfully

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

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  6. #13416
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    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    Here is an example of someone going out of their way to look at the most negative aspect they can of anything. "Filming is bad because it exposes one to criticism." I've gone to other performances, would have loved to have filmed it and taken it home and watched it over and over, for free. The people who perform and demonstate don't appreciate that, and for good reason. Right or wrong, what he teaches is his livelihood, and filming it, without permission, invades the rights in his material and his performance. Why do you think martial artists sell videos and DVD's? Why don't we all just go to a demonstration, seminar, movie, play, just film it from a distance or inside, and take it home, share it with others. Or bootleg the DVD/video. They don't mind that do they? One doesn't need video evidence to be criticized. This entire thread is proof of that.
    honestly mate if that was put on dvd and sold alot of people would ask for their money back

    no ones livelihood is at stake

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

    left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse

    handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down

  7. #13417
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    Not meaning to be a Bible thumper. But. Let those w/o sin cast the 1st stone.Which most of you have done.
    Anyway, GMT is not tight or inflexible. When he does demos he puts on a show , he doesnt try to necessarily do the form verbatum.
    As far as pressure points , if you dont train them you wont hit them. If you aim for 5 and hit 2 then that may be sufficient. 5 is better though. You have to know where they are to hit them. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  8. #13418
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Not meaning to be a Bible thumper. But. Let those w/o sin cast the 1st stone.Which most of you have done.
    Anyway, GMT is not tight or inflexible. When he does demos he puts on a show , he doesnt try to necessarily do the form verbatum.
    As far as pressure points , if you dont train them you wont hit them. If you aim for 5 and hit 2 then that may be sufficient. 5 is better though. You have to know where they are to hit them. KC
    um no the man was very stiff an awkward during that form( i watched it on video emo.com)
    you mean he does a version of it that doesnt suck?

    no master in their right mind does multiple pressure point strikes it is too hard against amoving opponent one can certainly work but multiples is nothing more than bullshido

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

    left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse

    handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down

  9. #13419
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    I disagree multiples is the only way to do it ones chances of hitting a point when attempting multiples is better, sort of like Babe Ruth and Homeruns, more time at bat more likely to hit a home run. No pressure point systems teach to strike at only one point. Goju , Shotokan included. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. #13420
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    try blindly poking someone multiple times in a flurry and see how well it works

    the idea behind finger jabs is they will drop you opponent wether you hit the nerve or not because the force is concentrated to a point thus magnifying power and making multiple pokes stupid an impractical

    goju or any other karate doesnt teach that bullshido in fact theres a clip of morio higaonna demonstrating dim mak and hes just preforming one strike not a multitude of silly shoo fly pokes
    Last edited by goju; 11-21-2009 at 12:31 PM.

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

    left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse

    handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down

  11. #13421
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    I disagree multiples is the only way to do it ones chances of hitting a point when attempting multiples is better, sort of like Babe Ruth and Homeruns, more time at bat more likely to hit a home run. No pressure point systems teach to strike at only one point. Goju , Shotokan included. KC
    Using something a little different:

    Which could be better: A hard open hand slap followed by another move? Or a slap followed by two or three tiny slaps?

    For most of us hitting a pressure point involves a certain amount of luck. Add to that the fact that your opponent probably isn't going to stand still and let you try to find another pressure point. Nope! It's really all or nothing.

  12. #13422
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    Different philosophy but some PP are so close a closed fist or palm will strike multiples. Your theory is flawed in that to train at higher levels you train against or with a Live opponent/partner. Most of who you may see doesnt train at this level and if they do they dont Spar in tournaments etc. It is this training that allows the person to hit the point or points. BTW everwonder why they dont allow pressure point hitting in MMA. it does work if done and trained correctly. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  13. #13423
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Not meaning to be a Bible thumper. But. Let those w/o sin cast the 1st stone.Which most of you have done.
    what ever i have said is said with my real name (bruce reiter, from atlanta ga). people know how to find me and contact me. anything i say here i say with respect and would respectfully say to a persons face.

    sin the' evan at his current age is in fantastic condition and in his prime was in even better. i like his ideas about "60 years old look and feel like 40 etc..."

    but that does not mean he presents all of the material he shows well. and it also does not mean he has more than a basic knowledge of some aspects of martial arts.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Anyway, GMT is not tight or inflexible. When he does demos he puts on a show , he doesnt try to necessarily do the form verbatum.
    that is the most silly thing i have heard.
    sin the' is a "grandmaster" who has practiced martial arts for more than 50 years. even if he changes something for a demo he should in my opinion show good body method and often times he does not at least in relation to specific arts.
    i have seen sin the' "perform" in many context. in demos for the public and also private demos for students, in one on one teaching situations etc etc ... he generally shows a similar "shen fa" or body method that is peculiar to him and with say tai chi, pakua, or hsing i very different than almost anyone i have seen out side of the system.

    i can understand changing a move here and there for a demo so you can tell if someone learned your material from you or from just watching the demo but why put on a "show" why not just demo what good martial arts are.

    i am not implying that sin the' cant fight, he may very well knock me the #$!% out...
    sin the' has been doing martial arts longer than i have been alive. by many accounts from people i trust sin the' can hit VERY fast and hard and is a excellent fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    As far as pressure points , if you dont train them you wont hit them. If you aim for 5 and hit 2 then that may be sufficient. 5 is better though. You have to know where they are to hit them. KC
    kc i think that is a impractical view point from a self defense stand point. there are far too many variables to depend on those type of tactics to defend your self.

    i do like the idea of attack, attack, attack, attack and then keep on attacking. but the idea of hitting small pressure points on a moving, fighting, resisting, violent attacker is just not going to happen.

    look at things objectively and with out emotion. let logic help you form your own opinion.
    best,

    bruce

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  14. #13424
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    they do have pressure poinbt attacks in mma

    what do you think the "button" is?

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

    left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse

    handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down

  15. #13425
    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    Not excuses, except to respond to someone who described it as random punching or something like that, which it was not and I meant to point that out (which I could not tell from watching the video but know only because I've been to the classes).
    how is your training in the form going? were you taught applications for it. if so can you explain any of them?


    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    I will not judge a video performance of a method I have not studied and I am not familiar with, without conversing with someone who is to explain it to me.
    wise... but i think it is ok to question. the senior people who have learned this forms have only been doing it for a short time so i doubt there is a high level of skill with it. so outside of sin the there seems to be no one to ask about it unless he would share with us who else does this form.



    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    I am also not so naive to think that a demonstration at an in-house tournament gathering is intended to show everything there is about the form or style for training or application purposes. That gets into the "demonstration" versus "exhibition" terms, doesn't it?
    no matter what you call it i would have expectations higher than what was shown.


    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    So yes I am defending, but only because some of the comments, not necessarily yours, demonstrated rash judgment, lack of understanding, and close-mindedness. Not that Meteor Fist is the greatest system of self defense ever invented, but that it is what it is, which is not fully reperesented by a minute of video in that context.
    i agree people should avoid making rash statements. i only addressed that video since it is public. i have from a few other sources private videos of sin the' doing the forms and out of respect to sin the and to the people who gave them to me i would not show them in public. what i am getting at is i think i have seen sin the' show what the "ideal" is with this style and i find it lacking in many ways. i may find it lacking because i do not understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    And as for internal part of it, I don't think it is revealing any secret that its history is said to be derived from selected methods of Pa Kua Chang, Hsing Ie, and Tai Chi Chuan. both as to body mechanics, fa jing, and chi kung. I'm not saying its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but that it is something different and is worthy of study and practice, depending on one's likes and capabilities. That's all.
    "depending on ones like" and their goals sure it could be great.

    regarding the history of liu hsing. in his book sin the' says tai chi, pakua and hsing i are prerequisites for learning meteor fist, if that is the case then why did he teach the leopard fors to prep instead of what he claimed was tradition?

    in addition it says in more recent times people used rubber resistance bands to train it.
    who are these people? where are they? since in the 4 decades sin the' has been teaching in the usa he has only recently taught anyone the form as far as i know.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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