View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

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    13 22.81%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13426
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    BTW everwonder why they dont allow pressure point hitting in MMA. it does work if done and trained correctly. KC
    think objectively.

    point me to a single person who has actaully used pressure point strikes to defend from a violent attack as have been spoken about in relation to meteor fist in any kind of fight, sport, self defense, war, police, bouncers, body guards or any other person.

    here are the rules for the ufc as stated on their site. their rules say nothing about pressure point hitting. there are limitations on some places you can hit but there are hundreds of pressure points available that are not in any of the forbidden areas

    http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
    >>Weight classes: [Top]
    Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
    Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
    Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
    Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
    Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

    Bout duration: [Top]
    All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
    All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
    Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
    A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

    Fouls: [Top]
    1. Butting with the head.
    2. Eye gouging of any kind.
    3. Biting.
    4. Hair pulling.
    5. Fish hooking.
    6. Groin attacks of any kind.
    7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
    8. Small joint manipulation.
    9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
    10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
    11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
    12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
    13. Grabbing the clavicle.
    14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
    15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
    16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
    17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
    18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
    19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
    20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
    21. Spitting at an opponent.
    22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
    23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
    24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
    25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
    26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
    27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
    28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
    29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
    30. Interference by the corner.
    31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

    Ways To Win: [Top]
    1. Submission by:
    Physical tap out.
    Verbal tap out.
    2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
    3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
    Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
    Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
    Majority decision [Two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner, the final judge says the fight was a draw].
    Draw, including:
    Unanimous draw.
    Majority draw.
    Split draw.
    4. Technical decision.
    5. Technical draw.
    6. Disqualification.
    7. Forfeit.
    8. No contest.


    Referee may Restart the round: [Top]
    If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish. <<
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  2. #13427
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    More on pressure point attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post

    kc i think that is a impractical view point from a self defense stand point. there are far too many variables to depend on those type of tactics to defend your self.

    i do like the idea of attack, attack, attack, attack and then keep on attacking. but the idea of hitting small pressure points on a moving, fighting, resisting, violent attacker is just not going to happen.

    look at things objectively and with out emotion. let logic help you form your own opinion.
    But: We have all trained in combinations regularly, punch, punch, chop, kick, punch, etc. Further, we are trained to precisely focus attacks to a target and distance and depth of penetration, as in breaking. What is the difference in throwing six blows, at just "close enough" to an intended target to hurt someone, versus throwing the same number of blows, but at a more precise target. Instead of fist to anywhere close to the nose to damage someone, a single knuckle to Stomach 4? And then instead of three rapid fire punches followed by a kick, three precision strikes to three points and a kick to another? Isn't the opponent still trying to dodge the blows, move the head, duck, etc. Its still a moving target. Yes it is more difficult to be more precise and focused, and yes it requires more skill, or at least a different kind of skill, but so does chain whip compared to short stick. Is it not within the debate to suggest it is in fact a different degree or higher level of skill, but not unattainable? Is it just another challenge to try, but a worthy one?

    And what is the judgment of one who can punch and kick with the best of them, versus one who's skill is such that they can strike with such precision as is called for in pressure point fighting? As long as the "science" of it has been around, someone thinks there is something to it.

    And we've seen the practitioners who come in to attack and who's hands are fast enough to put together multiple blows very quickly. What if instead of quick punches, those were all focused to specific points? Kick someone's leg to distract or disarm or some other "stun," and then quickly hit specific points? It doesn't sound that farfetched to me, although I certainly cannot claim such mastery, but certainly just punch and kick really hard and fast is a whole lot easier and a skill that can be attained much quicker. Same thing though is true in comparing basic kickboxing, versus practical pa kua chang or tai chi chuan. Doesn't mean its not worth learing or trying.

    And I have read and heard in more than one place that much of tai chi chuan for example includes precise pressure point attacks.

    How much practical difference in kicking one in the groin, and kicking one at ren mai 1? Or punching one in the eye, or bladder 1? Throat, or Stomach 9, Ren Mai 22 or 23 or 24? Not sure, but it is a question worth asking.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  3. #13428
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    Responding to Bruce . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    how is your training in the form going? were you taught applications for it. if so can you explain any of them?


    wise... but i think it is ok to question. the senior people who have learned this forms have only been doing it for a short time so i doubt there is a high level of skill with it. so outside of sin the there seems to be no one to ask about it unless he would share with us who else does this form.



    no matter what you call it i would have expectations higher than what was shown.



    i agree people should avoid making rash statements. i only addressed that video since it is public. i have from a few other sources private videos of sin the' doing the forms and out of respect to sin the and to the people who gave them to me i would not show them in public. what i am getting at is i think i have seen sin the' show what the "ideal" is with this style and i find it lacking in many ways. i may find it lacking because i do not understand it.



    "depending on ones like" and their goals sure it could be great.

    regarding the history of liu hsing. in his book sin the' says tai chi, pakua and hsing i are prerequisites for learning meteor fist, if that is the case then why did he teach the leopard fors to prep instead of what he claimed was tradition?

    in addition it says in more recent times people used rubber resistance bands to train it.
    who are these people? where are they? since in the 4 decades sin the' has been teaching in the usa he has only recently taught anyone the form as far as i know.
    1. My practice is going, although I can't say a major part of it is this material, although I am glad I learned it and have it to work on. Also, it would not be my place to attempt to teach it, other than regurgitating what I was shown and told and given, and I am still a firm believer that one does not pass on material without the teacher's permission. That's just me, I know others disagree. As for applications, "hit this point like this" is somewhat self-explanatory, although there is always room for reading more into almost any form than maybe even the creator of it intended. Again, not my place to say.

    2. Correct that because this material is in its infancy among those it was taught to, other than those who may have had private instruction its interpretation and application is also in its more infant stages.

    3. As for Golden Leopard, can only suggest that because it is also pressure point and rapid fire intensive, it was an appropriate prior step; and also that by the time GMT taught MF, pa kua, tai chi, and hsing ie had already been out for years, suspect just about everyone in the room had already had it.

    4. As for questioning the methods, I have also been a firm believer that a student should not question the teacher's methods. Once a student thinks he/she is capable of that, they need a new teacher. As Mr. Miyagi said, "I am teacher, you are student. I say, you do. No question." He got his house remodeled, but the kid did learn some things.

    5. As for rubber band training, don't know who else (I got to believe it would be the people he learned it with/from), can't say it mattered much too me.

    6. Expectations are what they are. When I see the old masters on tape doing stuff, I don't "expect" them to perform like a 20 year old, I just marvel at what they do, even though my understanding of it is limited. I would not think, "I can move faster than that," or "I would think they would be 'better' than that." I tend to believe they know what they are doing, they know more than I do, and they can teach me something I don't know, regardless of what they look like when they do it. I'm okay with that.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  4. #13429
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    MMA and pressure points

    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    think objectively.

    point me to a single person who has actaully used pressure point strikes to defend from a violent attack as have been spoken about in relation to meteor fist in any kind of fight, sport, self defense, war, police, bouncers, body guards or any other person.

    here are the rules for the ufc as stated on their site. their rules say nothing about pressure point hitting. there are limitations on some places you can hit but there are hundreds of pressure points available that are not in any of the forbidden areas

    http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
    >>Weight classes: [Top]
    Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
    Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
    Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
    Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
    Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

    Bout duration: [Top]
    All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
    All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
    Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
    A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

    Fouls: [Top]
    1. Butting with the head.
    2. Eye gouging of any kind.
    3. Biting.
    4. Hair pulling.
    5. Fish hooking.
    6. Groin attacks of any kind.
    7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
    8. Small joint manipulation.
    9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
    10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
    11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
    12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
    13. Grabbing the clavicle.
    14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
    15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
    16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
    17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
    18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
    19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
    20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
    21. Spitting at an opponent.
    22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
    23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
    24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
    25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
    26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
    27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
    28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
    29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
    30. Interference by the corner.
    31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

    Ways To Win: [Top]
    1. Submission by:
    Physical tap out.
    Verbal tap out.
    2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
    3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
    Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
    Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
    Majority decision [Two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner, the final judge says the fight was a draw].
    Draw, including:
    Unanimous draw.
    Majority draw.
    Split draw.
    4. Technical decision.
    5. Technical draw.
    6. Disqualification.
    7. Forfeit.
    8. No contest.


    Referee may Restart the round: [Top]
    If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish. <<
    Take any generally accepted pressure point attack chart. Mark out the target areas outlawed in UFC, for example. I would guess 75% of the designated points are off limits. I'm sure its just a coincindence. But like I said, how much different is kicking one in the groin, or kicking one at Ren Mai 1? Or striking the throat, or strking Stomach 9? You are both (KC and Bruce) correct: MMA does prohibit point attacks, in the prohibied areas; but does not in the allowed areas.

    I wonder when I see them fight, what a ref or judge (or opponent) would do if an attack was made with the dragon fist, phoenix eye fist, or combination (two knuckle), or even the leopard fist (four knuckle), to the liver, diaphragm, under the jaw, or other "permitted" area.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  5. #13430
    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    But: We have all trained in combinations regularly, punch, punch, chop, kick, punch, etc. Further, we are trained to precisely focus attacks to a target and distance and depth of penetration, as in breaking. What is the difference in throwing six blows, at just "close enough" to an intended target to hurt someone, versus throwing the same number of blows, but at a more precise target. Instead of fist to anywhere close to the nose to damage someone, a single knuckle to Stomach 4? And then instead of three rapid fire punches followed by a kick, three precision strikes to three points and a kick to another? Isn't the opponent still trying to dodge the blows, move the head, duck, etc. Its still a moving target. Yes it is more difficult to be more precise and focused, and yes it requires more skill, or at least a different kind of skill, but so does chain whip compared to short stick. Is it not within the debate to suggest it is in fact a different degree or higher level of skill, but not unattainable? Is it just another challenge to try, but a worthy one?

    And what is the judgment of one who can punch and kick with the best of them, versus one who's skill is such that they can strike with such precision as is called for in pressure point fighting? As long as the "science" of it has been around, someone thinks there is something to it.

    And we've seen the practitioners who come in to attack and who's hands are fast enough to put together multiple blows very quickly. What if instead of quick punches, those were all focused to specific points? Kick someone's leg to distract or disarm or some other "stun," and then quickly hit specific points? It doesn't sound that farfetched to me, although I certainly cannot claim such mastery, but certainly just punch and kick really hard and fast is a whole lot easier and a skill that can be attained much quicker. Same thing though is true in comparing basic kickboxing, versus practical pa kua chang or tai chi chuan. Doesn't mean its not worth learing or trying.

    And I have read and heard in more than one place that much of tai chi chuan for example includes precise pressure point attacks.

    How much practical difference in kicking one in the groin, and kicking one at ren mai 1? Or punching one in the eye, or bladder 1? Throat, or Stomach 9, Ren Mai 22 or 23 or 24? Not sure, but it is a question worth asking.
    thanks for keeping it civil. i disagree with a few of your points but your posts are very rational. i appreciate that.

    i am not saying that pressure points are not useful in any way, what i am saying is that in my opinion it would take such a high level of skill to use those tactics to defend yourself from violent attack. there are too many variables.

    clothing can get in the way, some people do not respond to the pain of pressure points, if your fingers are not conditioned and you strike fast and hard with your finger tips they will break...... etc etc......

    as i said i have not seen any single factual, verifiable account of these tactics (meaning pressure point fighting as explained by sin the') being used to defend from a violent attack. legends and stories do not count.

    this is not to say that you cant hit the nose followed buy the solar plexus followed by the groin against a violent attack. most arts train tactics such as that and you see it on the "street" all of the time from thugs etc and you see it in sports minus the groin part of it.

    i guess it all depends on your goals for training as to weather you want to take the time to train these tactics beyond just doing the movements in the form.
    Last edited by brucereiter; 11-21-2009 at 09:30 PM.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  6. #13431
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    Bruce, with all due respect of course, the same could be said for you and you interest only in the internal arts. Quoting from your post, if one were to exchange internal arts for pressure point hitting, well, it would appear that you were wasting all of your time training. While it may be the opinion of some that pp training is not practical for fighting, more would agree that internal arts aren't.


    i am not saying that internal MA are not useful in any way, what i am saying is that in my opinion it would take such a high level of skill to use those tactics to defend yourself from violent attack. there are too many variables.

    as i said i have not seen any single factual, verifiable account of these tactics (meaning internal MA) being used to defend from a violent attack. legends and stories do not count.

    i guess it all depends on your goals for training as to weather you want to take the time to train these tactics beyond just doing the movements in the form.
    "Pain heals, chicks dig scars..Glory lasts forever"......

  7. #13432
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    In 1978 i was in Nashville Tn. I was attacked at a theatre, by this guy at this time I was and had bneen taught that all MA was pressure points. Maybe just my teachers opinion. Anyway he attacked I was taught to hit certain points and I did it was Liver 13 and St 9 he went down and I ran off. It was over. the guy was big and strong. Luck maybe but I was taught the combo and I hit it, I was trained that way.
    In MA one is taught to focus Chi or Ki in the area from the 1st 2 knuckles or what ever striking area of the body. It can be done if you take the time to do it. Here is a fun drill have someone blow bubbles alot of them and see how many you can burst with one finger or kick with the big toe in each time before they areall gone. A fun game but very functional. Also there are 720 points in the body not all are effective to hit. But that is alot KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  8. #13433
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    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    1. My practice is going, although I can't say a major part of it is this material, although I am glad I learned it and have it to work on. Also, it would not be my place to attempt to teach it, other than regurgitating what I was shown and told and given, and I am still a firm believer that one does not pass on material without the teacher's permission. That's just me, I know others disagree. As for applications, "hit this point like this" is somewhat self-explanatory, although there is always room for reading more into almost any form than maybe even the creator of it intended. Again, not my place to say.

    2. Correct that because this material is in its infancy among those it was taught to, other than those who may have had private instruction its interpretation and application is also in its more infant stages.

    3. As for Golden Leopard, can only suggest that because it is also pressure point and rapid fire intensive, it was an appropriate prior step; and also that by the time GMT taught MF, pa kua, tai chi, and hsing ie had already been out for years, suspect just about everyone in the room had already had it.

    4. As for questioning the methods, I have also been a firm believer that a student should not question the teacher's methods. Once a student thinks he/she is capable of that, they need a new teacher. As Mr. Miyagi said, "I am teacher, you are student. I say, you do. No question." He got his house remodeled, but the kid did learn some things.

    5. As for rubber band training, don't know who else (I got to believe it would be the people he learned it with/from), can't say it mattered much too me.

    6. Expectations are what they are. When I see the old masters on tape doing stuff, I don't "expect" them to perform like a 20 year old, I just marvel at what they do, even though my understanding of it is limited. I would not think, "I can move faster than that," or "I would think they would be 'better' than that." I tend to believe they know what they are doing, they know more than I do, and they can teach me something I don't know, regardless of what they look like when they do it. I'm okay with that.
    To question is to seek understanding.

  9. #13434
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    To question yes to judge w/o understanding is just not too smart. I feel most people dont understand systems or forms from the systems and what they are trying to convey. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. #13435
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    To question yes to judge w/o understanding is just not too smart. I feel most people dont understand systems or forms from the systems and what they are trying to convey. KC
    So you're saying most people don't understand forms and their underlying priciples but you do?

  11. #13436
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    Bruce, with all due respect of course, the same could be said for you and you interest only in the internal arts. Quoting from your post, if one were to exchange internal arts for pressure point hitting, well, it would appear that you were wasting all of your time training. While it may be the opinion of some that pp training is not practical for fighting, more would agree that internal arts aren't.


    i am not saying that internal MA are not useful in any way, what i am saying is that in my opinion it would take such a high level of skill to use those tactics to defend yourself from violent attack. there are too many variables.

    as i said i have not seen any single factual, verifiable account of these tactics (meaning internal MA) being used to defend from a violent attack. legends and stories do not count.

    i guess it all depends on your goals for training as to weather you want to take the time to train these tactics beyond just doing the movements in the form.
    hi gt,

    it is true and a good point you bring up many people do say ima is not a practical method of self defense. in many cases the nay sayers are correct. in my opinion if i only trained with/against people who practice ima i would be very limited in my usage and understanding. but with testing "your"/my stuff out and experimenting using the tactics i have learned against people with different skill sets, tactics and martial attributes many arts including "pressure point fighting" can be useful. but isolated from outside influence you may limit your understanding no matter what art you study. i guess my "problem" with pp's is the romantic notions people have about using them if a 6'2" 280lb violent thug is attacking you...
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  12. #13437
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    SD no what I am saying is it is apparent that, as far as I can tell no one understands the concept GMT is teaching with the small piece of form shown. Or with pressure point fighting in general. It is taught in the military at higher levels for a reason. I do not feel I am the only one who understands form usage or philosophy. I do understand it in a different way but that is just environmental. Bruce I agree with your last statement except I feel if trained properly then it doesnt matter how big the dude is. It is the points that are hit that matter. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  13. #13438
    I'm just wondering why he would demo such a complex and advanced form to a group of potential students. Especially since they were so far away they could not pick up on the details even if they knew what they were for.

    Also the music and smoke was a bit rediculous!

    I don't know.....

    I think it's crazy to promote meteor fist and try to teach it to students who are still having trouble with the basics. That's like trying to teach brain surgery to a freshman in college.

  14. #13439
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    i saw nothing complicated or internal about that fprm
    in fact i beleive that is one of the forms that calls sd's legitamacy into question and rightfully so

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

    left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse

    handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down

  15. #13440
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    Has anyone posting or commenting seen the entire form??? If not then other than blatant comments then no one knows what they are looking at. Or what is being done. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

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