View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13441
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Has anyone posting or commenting seen the entire form??? If not then other than blatant comments then no one knows what they are looking at. Or what is being done. KC
    why would anyone want to see more that was enough

    you mean to tell me the rest doesnt look rediculous when its played through?

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  2. #13442
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    Ok so Go Ju is out of it anyone else?? KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  3. #13443
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Has anyone posting or commenting seen the entire form??? If not then other than blatant comments then no one knows what they are looking at. Or what is being done. KC
    i have only seen the "first road". i was not taught it but was given a few videos from a few different people of sin the doing it. they were not at a demo i would imagine it was made for instruction of students/teachers
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
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  4. #13444
    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    Take any generally accepted pressure point attack chart. Mark out the target areas outlawed in UFC, for example. I would guess 75% of the designated points are off limits. I'm sure its just a coincindence. But like I said, how much different is kicking one in the groin, or kicking one at Ren Mai 1? Or striking the throat, or strking Stomach 9? You are both (KC and Bruce) correct: MMA does prohibit point attacks, in the prohibied areas; but does not in the allowed areas.

    I wonder when I see them fight, what a ref or judge (or opponent) would do if an attack was made with the dragon fist, phoenix eye fist, or combination (two knuckle), or even the leopard fist (four knuckle), to the liver, diaphragm, under the jaw, or other "permitted" area.
    http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/...s-strikes.html
    the above link has a very simple point "map" of the several shown (about 37) only about 8 would not be allowed in the ufc. why do you think the ufc teams are not using these ideas.

    i am not sure if the "fist shapes" you mentioned are allowed.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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  5. #13445
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    The UFC uses gloves that would take away from alot of the fist position strikes. Thus shorter fights less fan base and less money.

    I trained with a man who was trained in Japan at the shoto-Kai I believe, he said they did a "more" original type of Shoto kan all their fists were middle knockle strikes. alot of the punches in MMA would be more effective to pressure points w/o gloves etc.
    I feel the Leopard forms and Liu Shing forms are for a different purpose instead of direct attack to a simple point. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  6. #13446
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    The UFC uses gloves that would take away from alot of the fist position strikes. KC
    this could be a problem.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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  7. #13447
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    Good god, that's horrible. Really poor sparring. There's nothing good to say about it frankly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  8. #13448
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    UFC and pressure points

    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/...s-strikes.html
    the above link has a very simple point "map" of the several shown (about 37) only about 8 would not be allowed in the ufc. why do you think the ufc teams are not using these ideas.

    i am not sure if the "fist shapes" you mentioned are allowed.
    I think my estimate of 75% of attack points out of the permitted area may have been too high, but my point is made. Many of the primary attack points are in the groin/pelvis, the neck/throat, too close to the eyes, or along the base of the skull, neck, and spine.

    Also, don't MMA gloves just cover the first knuckles of the fist, so that grip/grappling not overly limited, and so would not effect the knuckles of the next joint up (the "proximal interphalangial joint"), the focal point of the dragon fist, the phoenix eye fist, the combination of those, or the leopard fist. I didn't see anything on Bruce's "rules" list that said a fighter can't strike with that weapon. You don't see much open hand chop either, do you?

    As for why MMA coaches don't train that, I can only guess that if they don't already have that training, they don't want to take away from their limited training time to get in a ring or the time away from basic striking, ground fighting, and conditioning. Or they just don't know the techniques, or like so many, don't believe in it.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  9. #13449
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    Questioning

    Quote Originally Posted by SDJerry View Post
    To question is to seek understanding.
    "Teacher [or sifu or sensei or master or whatever], what does this mean?" "Is this correct?" "Shoud I do it like this?" That's one thing. You are correct.

    But: "Teacher, shouldn't you be teaching it like this instead?" "Why aren't you teaching me this method first?" "Can't we skip that and go on to this instead?" "Are you sure we should be doing it this way?" That is something different.

    Asking questions is not what I meant. Questioning the Teacher's credibility, methods, or knowledge, that is when you find a new teacher -- or they do it for you.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  10. #13450
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Good god, that's horrible. Really poor sparring. There's nothing good to say about it frankly.
    contrast that with this ...

    http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1sifu#p/a/u/0/7v7i37wzeDU
    i think the students in the above clip did some very good work and tim nance gave a excellent lesson.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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  11. #13451
    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    I think my estimate of 75% of attack points out of the permitted area may have been too high, but my point is made. Many of the primary attack points are in the groin/pelvis, the neck/throat, too close to the eyes, or along the base of the skull, neck, and spine..
    on another note regarding those type of targets and self defense.
    a friend/teacher/training partner of mine told me about the "3 r's"
    (i dont know if he made them up or learned it from someone else )
    retreat
    restrain
    ruin

    now the hard choice in self defense is to know which is the correct choice. for me trying to have compassion for all i try and chose retreat but sometimes the most compassionate thing is to ruin.

    at any rate for i do not want to hit a persons throat or eyes. if it is my only way out a man will do what a man has to do but blinding another human would not sit easy with me.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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  12. #13452
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    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    contrast that with this ...

    http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1sifu#p/a/u/0/7v7i37wzeDU
    i think the students in the above clip did some very good work and tim nance gave a excellent lesson.
    Having taken a similar seminar from Master Nance in the past I can say that he is an excellent teacher with a very pragmatic approach. The parts of that video which showed free sparring were much better than the Colorado CSC. Not perfect but generally the students showed better inensity and intent with their technique. I saw some good, some bad and some sloppy, but that's to be expected.

    On pressure points, my theory used to be this--if I can knock you out then I can poke you wherever the helI I want. But its refined itslef somewhat--I don't trust pressure points. In my experience its hard enough to hit a resisting opponent in the nose, throat, groin or solor plexus to worry about liver 9 or stomach 13; however, and this has probably been alluded to already, targeting those areas often coincide with areas that you are trained to aid for anyway so trying to refine your target (or more properly identifying it) isn't bad, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of solid power, speed and body mechnics behind any blow. Aim for what hurts, call it whatever you want, and hit it hard, fast and often. Typically hard strikes to soft targets work best and if you get a hold of your opponent, don't let go until he makes you or he can't fight anymore. That's just my philosophy on the whole matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  13. #13453
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    targeting those areas often coincide with areas that you are trained to aid for anyway so trying to refine your target (or more properly identifying it) isn't bad, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of solid power, speed and body mechnics behind any blow.
    I agree, and you make a great point. The delivery method is more important than the exact location of the strike down to a couple milimeters. If it's not correct then it doesn't matter where you strike.

    The delivery method is that "body method" I've often heard Bruce refer to. Your body must move as a unit and your structure must be correct. You should feel a connection from your fist all the way to the ground. Once you start to learn this or see it displayed properly, it is very easy to spot it's absence.

    The human body is pretty resilient and can withstand a lot, especially with adrenaline flowing, so if you want to end a fight you have to be able to generate a lot of power. Yes, soft tissue takes less, however you need to maintain a structure at all times that you can defend and attack from.

  14. #13454
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    Bill the Superfoot Wallace was a great left leg kicker, why, he had an injury to his other knee. Necessety breeds improvement and takes time. PP training has slow results but is effective but one has to take the time both Physical and mental to know when and how to use it. Most people arent that interested in doing that. If one were to train in the PP tech consistently from the beginning then I feel it would be as easy as punching someone in the gut as it would be to hit a single or multiple points. Most arent willing to do that type of training. It seems. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  15. #13455
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Bill the Superfoot Wallace was a great left leg kicker, why, he had an injury to his other knee. Necessety breeds improvement and takes time. PP training has slow results but is effective but one has to take the time both Physical and mental to know when and how to use it. Most people arent that interested in doing that. If one were to train in the PP tech consistently from the beginning then I feel it would be as easy as punching someone in the gut as it would be to hit a single or multiple points. Most arent willing to do that type of training. It seems. KC
    i guess you and i have had a very different experience with violent attacks.
    nothing is going to work 100% of the time and i for sure have many low probability "moves" that i practice and try to understand and improve. but for self defense i tend to focus on a few high probability "moves". again all of this depends on your goals.
    in my opinion pressure point fighting at least the way i think you are explaining it would be low probability for example if you "plan" to hit point x,y,z...

    i like bill wallace kicking method. he only throws a few kinds of kick and all have the basically same setup so the person being kicked knows a kick is coming but does not know which one until it is too late.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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