View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13591
    [QUOTE=tattooedmonk;1006077]whats this all about??



    EDIT: Found some info... I know sorry.
    Last edited by sideslider; 04-24-2010 at 07:16 PM.

  2. #13592
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    Mystery of the Golden Tiger

    So, did you find out anything other than what was on the Phoenix CSC website?
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  3. #13593
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    OTD wasn't Buddha fist also one of those forms? I thought there were a few others that were shared by the Bangdung students.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  4. #13594
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    Mystery, question, whatever . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by OTD View Post
    There is no mystery.
    This is one of the forms shown to the visiting
    Shaolin-Do group in Bandung 1992 by Tjie Tiong's
    students. The other one was the 14th White crane.
    They, the Bandung students were kind enough to
    allow both to be filmed and every so often one and
    maybe both are taught out.
    OTD
    The "mystery" (maybe a poor choice of word in raising/answering a question) was that: 1) material was being taught at a school under GMS; 2) that was not, from appearances, ever on any SD or SDA curriculum, material, or seminar announcement (that at least two people knew of or remembered or could find); and 3) was not being taught by GMS. The mention of it on Phoenix's CSC website said nothing about where it came from or how. Maybe that's more of a mystery to some than it is for others. Therefore, questions from persons who don't know the origin of everything taught everywhere. That's all. Thank you for your response which was helpful explaining about the origins of Golden Tiger. Now, when will someone teach it somewhere other than Phoenix?
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  5. #13595
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    anyone going to the seminar in lexington saturday?
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  6. #13596

    To Judge Pen ...

    So, that PM didnt go so well ... got cut off. I still have the whole text of my inquiry but your PM's were full. If you are interested please let me know as I can send it another way/day. Thank you.

  7. #13597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron_Lung View Post
    So, that PM didnt go so well ... got cut off. I still have the whole text of my inquiry but your PM's were full. If you are interested please let me know as I can send it another way/day. Thank you.
    PM with my e-mail is sent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  8. #13598
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    master leonards sword seminar was fun
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  9. #13599
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    JP - is this golden tiger?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6GJHOagIyY

    FWIW - I know this is beginners performing.

    But is this the golden tiger set you were referring to?
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  10. #13600
    In response to Bodhi Warrior and KungFu Genius a couple of posts back, I'm posting a blurb I wrote for a friend's message board. It elaborates a bit on what was said about tai chi and hsing-I being two sides of the same coin. Take what I have to say with a grain of salt...


    We like to put things in a box as human beings. We like to categorize and to analyze things. It's human nature to break complex things down into simpler ways of understanding. So it is with our understanding of violence and self defense. All martial arts systems are a way of categorizing how to respond to a hostile action by another person.

    People have found different ways of dealing with violence, and thus, different ways of training others to do the same. A martial arts "style" is simply that...one person's way of teaching another how to respond to the threat of force. Different styles of martial arts have very different characteristics that are often a reflection of the strengths and weaknesses of the style's founder Wing chun, for example, looks very different from Okinawan Shotokan, which looks different than Chen taiji. Even martial arts that share similar principles such as taiji, xingyi, and bagua can look very different from one another.

    However, our tendency to put things in an artificial box can lead us into a subtle trap. When we put a label on something, it can limit the way we think about it.

    We can see this at work in a simple example. Karate has a rising forearm movement known as "Jodan Uke", traditionally translated as "upper/high block". Thousands of students have been taught this application and think of it as a blocking maneuver. However, the proper translation of uke should be "to receive, or counter". If one doesn't think of the movement as a block, it opens up more applications, including a forearm smash to the chin or neck, that is far more efficient in ending a fight than a simple block. Likewise, when one names "gedan uke" a "low block", students will concentrate on the downward force of a "block", and not see the groin hammerfist, or that the move right before the downward action can be an elbow or neck break under the right circumstances.

    The mere act of naming or defining something locks the application in place in one's mind, and can close off other possibilities of applications.

    I find the potential of a similar subtle trap with the teaching of the internal arts. Taiji, xingyi, and bagua have often been taught together in Kung Fu schools because they have been viewed as complementary to one another. The striking power of xingyi can be combined with the evasive footwork of bagua and the relaxed grounding and yielding of taiji.

    The problem i find is that training specific movement patterns with the label of a particular style can limit our horizons if we are not careful.
    If one separates out the styles and steps like bagua, strikes like Xingyi, and yields like taiji, it creates an artificial distinction in the mind of the practitioner that these are completely different arts. If one looks closely, however, they all rely on common principles...full body power from the ground up, transmitted in a relaxed fashion through the skeletal structure, supported by balance and sensitivity to read incoming force. They also have in common spiralling energy and peng. Despite their external differences they are merely different manifestations of the same underlying principles.

    Labeling a way of moving as taiji, xingyi, or bagua may require us to make a mental shift to change into a different way of movement because they are often taught separately as different martial arts. However, in a real situation, the goal should not be to move against the opponent in a "taiji way" or a "xingyi way." The goal should be internalized subconscious movement to remove the threat based on the situation at hand...not conformity to a style. In a true self defense situation, we will not have time to remember specific moves, or particular "fight by numbers" technique. We just need to move.

    When working with a partner on the contact flow exercise (similar to free form push hands with the ability to move your feet/root), we will often stop to analyze how one of us managed to penetrate the other person's defenses and strike, so that both of us improves. I've often found it is difficult to reconstruct a move I've just done that was so effective. My body responds to the incoming force, and the result is instinctual, subconscious, and automatic. On further analysis, my response may have resembled something from a taiji form, or bagua, or xingyi... but my mind isn't trying to consciously do "parting wild horses mane", or "hide flower under leaves". The response is what it is, based on what my body felt and how it moved in response to that movement.

    In the end, human movement is just human movement. The boxes that we make of individual styles are a good starting point to learn body mechanics and general principles. Ultimately, though, the goal is to combine those principles into a synthesis within the practitioner, so that when a threat comes, movement just happens. The practitioner in essence, creates his own "internal style" based on how his own body moves according to the underlying principles.

    Real violence can't be put into a rigidly defined box. Fighting is not like a paint-by-numbers project, nor can it be choreographed. We must make sure that the semi-artificial boxes of "style" doesn't hamper our ability to respond effectively in a real situation.

  11. #13601
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    I can answer that ,,, that is not the golden tiger that was being talked about ... that is a brown belt form... and not done at its best by any means????
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  12. #13602
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    I wasn't concerned about the quality of the performance...

    Is there footage of this Golden Tiger set available anywhere?
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  13. #13603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    I wasn't concerned about the quality of the performance...

    Is there footage of this Golden Tiger set available anywhere?
    I think I have an example in a format I can e-mail. PM me your e-mail Mas and I'll see if I can locate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  14. #13604
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    Done

    Don't forget to send it to Nigerian scammers...
    www.kungnation.com

    Pre-order Kung! Twisted Barbarian Felony from your favorite comic shop!

  15. #13605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    Don't forget to send it to Nigerian scammers...
    Nah, just you. But the e-mail I had for you no longer works. send me your new one and I'll send you a clip of the form they are talking about.

    It's been around Tennessee and Kentucky for a while, but I guess its new to the old CSC schools that are now under Elder Master Mullins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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