View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13681
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Dufresne View Post
    Hello Judge Penn,

    From time to time as you know I like to stop in here to say hello. Its been a long time my friend-- I hope you and your family have a wonderful holiday season. Im still living up here in Mass--I returned from China in April- I started a Wushu class again in Ipswitch, Mass - I look forward to teaching Wushu to kids again, as I have only been teaching Tai-Chi and Ba-Gua for years now..

    Please stay in touch and God Bless

    John D
    Hey John,

    Thanks for the warm wishes. My family is growing as I now have a 2 month old son to go with my 4 year old daughter. Work is keeping me busy and my training has really suffered from it. But all is well and there are no complaints. Take care John.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  2. Hey Judge you only have what 3? years until your test for Associate Master?

    Keep it rolling my man and congrats on the baby!

  3. #13683
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfujunky View Post
    Hey Judge you only have what 3? years until your test for Associate Master?

    Keep it rolling my man and congrats on the baby!
    I have no plans to attempt to advance in rank. Rank was never especially relevant to me. I respect people because of their knowledge, skill and demeanor. That doesn't necessarily follow rank in my experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  4. #13684
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    Apr 2003
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    Oh and thanks for the congrats on the baby. My kids are, by far, my best acheivment in my life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  5. #13685
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    Mar 2009
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    Southeast (Kentucky)
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    JP,

    Excellent response. Concur 100%.

  6. #13686
    the answer is yes

    shaolin do is for real.
    this is my mom she is very strong

  7. #13687
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    Mar 2009
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    Southeast (Kentucky)
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    157
    OMG! Sammo!

  8. #13688
    i lied.

    shaolin do is not for real.
    this is my mom she is very strong

  9. #13689

    Si Men Dao Lian -- what is it, really?

    I've been trying to figure out what "Si Men Dao Lian" is (proper Chinese translation) for some times.

    First of all, is this the correct pinyin spelling? If so, could it be "四门道练" (if you read Chinese)?

    In a related matter, what is "Si Men Dao Lian" anyhow? Is it related to "Si Men Quan (Si Men Fist, 四门拳)," a.k.a. "Si Fang Quan (四方拳)," or more specifically, "Si Men Lian Quan (四门连拳)," which is a sequence of movements within Si Men Quan?

    -Hap



    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    I have heard it called that, as well. Si (Se) Men is definately four door. But I haven't been able to identify that word "lien" or "lian" as "break" or anything like that. Dao could possibly really be "da", which is strike or hit...but I still can't find a good meaning for "lian" that makes sense in this context. I just don't know enough about the language. With the actual characters we could put this to rest, I hope it's legible!

    I disagree that we teach a karate like style...maybe kuntao like, but kuntao is supposed to be the Indonesian word for Chinese martial arts, right? The most karate-like part are the one step sparring and techniques at yellow and blue, and the nunchaku spinning, I guess. The forms, right from the beginning, are definately nothing like any Okinawan or Japanese karate kata. The basic staff spins and form are not Okinawan in any way. They maybe taught and practiced in a way that doesn't "flow" really well, but their content is not karate at all. Even the Lohan short forms, while we pratice them in a way that you might see in a karate school, moving from one side of the school to the other, they are not at all like karate basics (and I believe other Chinese arts have drills like this, too, like tan tui).
    The only thing that makes people think it looks like karate is the halting manner in which it is performed sometimes (and the fact that we're usually wearing a gi).
    If the basic and brown belt forms were performed with the right "flavor", they'd look like "real cma" as well, I believe. I'll test out that theory with my videos, if I ever manage to make them.

    I'm sure you're right, the way we are taught early on affects the way we perform the more recognizeable "cma" forms later on, like the drunken style and the hua fist, and the hsing i.

  10. #13690

    CSC Curriculum Translation in Pinyin and Simplified Chinese

    This is a good place to start a Mandarin Chinese translation of the CSC (Chinese Shao-Lin Center) curriculum. There are variation (materials taught) between Schools, but so far, curricula from White to 3rd Brown are listed -- I suppose more can be added later; feel free to contribute.

    Note that the curriculum spelling uses the old Wade-Giles system, which is phonetically translated from Cantonese pronunciation. Pinyin, on the other hand, is the official system used in Mandarin Chinese to transcribe Chinese characters. Simplified Chinese is also added for your benefit. I suggest this site (http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php), if you want to get an idea of the English translation. Once at the site, simply copy/paste the Chinese characters (see below) into the search link.


    Forms (but more like tao-lu, or 套路, or sequence of movements within longer/complete forms):
    1. Lohan Short Form = Luohan Fist, but of some kind of "local/personal" favor tailored by CSC (this is typical, historically, in the Shaolin arts)
    2. Si Meng T'ao Lian = Si Men Dao Lian = 四门倒连
    3. Fei Hu Ch'u Tung = Fei Hu Chu Dong = 飞虎出洞
    4. T'ai P'eng Sin Kune (or Sin Chi'h) = Da Peng Shen Chi = 大鹏伸翅
    5. Lohan Ch'ien = Luohan Quan = 罗汉拳

    Sparring:
    1. Chin Na = Qin Na = 擒拿
    2. Le Pu Tue Ta = Yi Bu Dui Da = 一步对打
    3. Le Pu Fa Shu = Yi Bu Fa Shu = 一步法术

    Weapons:
    1. Se Mien Pa Fang Pang = Si Mian Ba Fang Bang = 四面八方棒
    2. Pei Fang Ch'i Kai Pang = Bei Fang Qi Gai Bang = 北方乞丐棒
    3. Er Chie Kuen = Er Jie Gun = 二节棍

    Others:
    1. I Chin Ching = Yi Jin Jing = 易筋经
    2. T'ai Chi Ch'uan = Tai Ji Quan = 太极拳


    -Hap



    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    It's true, no one ever demonstrates the beginner material. I wouldn't say SD teaches traditional northern shaolin at all, none of the sets you listed are in the curriculum. The preliminary material that everyone learns first are mostly self-defense and fighting oriented. For me, the first qi gong presented was in the form of taijiquan postures like holding ball and white crane apreads wings, and the universal posture, this was taught along with the simplified 24 form from the very beginning. later, hou tian qi breathing methods and meditation postures were presented in a yearly or twice yearly class. Five animal play and xian tian qi were taught after about 1.5/2 years, again only as a special class taught once or twice a year. The real preliminary material for the long forms, I feel, is the 30 short forms, which are taught from day one. The short forms are longfist-like patterns of 2-6 techniques each that move in a straight line forward and back, mostly closed fist hands techniques. This is where the traditional stances are learned, long low stances are emphasized for stretching and strengthening. The techniques from the short forms are found in some of the forms learned later on, like jie quan. Along with the 30 forms, there are some very short routines taught like si men tao lian, fei hu chu dong, tai peng shen quan, and luohan quan (which is not anything like the shaolin ones, it is a very short preliminary mantis form).

    After these, some forms more moderate in length and difficulty are taught. san he quan, which is a fukien-style sanzhan-like form. Three forms called white crane circles wings, white crane jabs wings, white crane circles legs (which might really all be one form). These have some fukien-like elements, but are not like any of the fukien white crane styles I've seen. They include ground techniques, rolling and drop kick/ground sweeps.

    Then there are the three bird forms. These have longfist-like elements from the , such as the long stances and straight leg kicks, but most of the hand techniques are open hand finger and palms, and there are some southern-like elements, such as a sequence using the three battle stance from san he quan.

    Then comes jie quan, lian wu zhang, and jin gang fu hu quan, which I feel are closest in style to the type of northern longfist forms practiced in Taiwan. I know jie quan is a form used by chin woo, and maybe all three of these came from a chin woo someplace before they ended up in Bandung in the 1950s.

    After this, comes the black tiger forms, black tiger rips the heart, BT turns the body, BT flips the body, and BT suffering wounds. These forms use loose whipping power with mostly open hands/palms. They are also quite athletic, with cartwheels, rolls and drops and kicking/sweeping and grabbing from the ground.

    The the taijiquan 37 form is taught, or emphasized at this time (it may have been learned earlier on in a special class)

    After these forms, baguazhang practice begins with the "original" form of jiang rong qiao (though he is not given credit or mentioned at all, don't think amny people know/realize this). After baguazhang comes xingyiquan with five roads, linkage form, 12 animals, and then a two person set combining the elements and animals. Also at this time the five animal play qi gong is emphasized, required material for testing along with the xingyiquan.

    After the xingyiquan come a group of unrelated forms from various styles, a mantis form simply called "tang lang quan" which has tons of kicks and some rolling/ground attack, the hung gar-like tiger crane double form, and four roads of hua quan. After this is the drunken eight immortals system, one form for each immortal, as well as the hung sing choy li fut version of the five animal form (or one extremely similar to that).

    After that, come more internal forms, the chen 83 posture old frame form, 8 animal baguazhang, and some other stuff I'm not sure about.
    What comes after that, I don't know, if there is a formal curriculum for that stage.

    At all levels, there are various weapon forms being taught along with the empty hand forms...different staff forms, short stick, dao, jian, spear, guan dao, chain whip, tiger hook swords, daggers

    The material I just listed is meant to be taught over the course of fifteen years, minimum, according to the schedule the CSC in the west had in place. There are lots of other forms which are not part of the curriculum (yet) but which Sin The or the other masters teach in seminar format each year as they travel around the country.
    Last edited by hap; 12-04-2010 at 01:53 PM.

  11. #13691
    "四门倒连" doesn't make a lot of sense, even to a native speaker... but at least we have a possible translation!

    Many thanks!
    -Hap


    Quote Originally Posted by OTD View Post
    hap

    Se Mong Tau Lie
    Taken from a 1969 list

    OTD
    Last edited by hap; 12-04-2010 at 02:15 PM.

  12. #13692
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    I thought it would be funny to post this here.

    I'll probably open a public school in the near future. For the sake of convenience and affordability, I expect to use Karate Gi's for my CMA/IMA club.

    It's common in Holland, and many Silat schools have adopted gi's and belts. It is so efficient, I can't see a better option.

    Just don't confuse me with a Shaolin Do school though
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  13. #13693
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    you're not getting off that easy! We all know now that if you wear a Japanese gi, it must be JMA! CMA doens't wear uniforms, and IMA has to wear traditional Indonesian garb! c'mon. have these 1,000,000,000 posts taught us nothing?
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  14. #13694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    I thought it would be funny to post this here.

    I'll probably open a public school in the near future. For the sake of convenience and affordability, I expect to use Karate Gi's for my CMA/IMA club.

    It's common in Holland, and many Silat schools have adopted gi's and belts. It is so efficient, I can't see a better option.

    Just don't confuse me with a Shaolin Do school though
    Shaolin-do: Ahead of the curve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  15. #13695
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    Maybe I'll call my school 'Wu Tang Do'



    Only kidding!!
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