View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13906
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    "A mantis is a mantis.

    QED.

    What is mantis kung fu? It is, well, kung fu that looks "mantiddy.""

    Why do I get the feeling like I am reading a post that reminds me of stuff L. Ron Hubbard talks about(when I hear gullable scientologists go on their rant?) He was fond of inventing his own terminology. And so it goes w/ "mantiddy"



    "Can you do these things utilizing the proper methods of motion?

    If you can, you're doing mantis."

    Oh wise one..I am not worthy to be receiving of your expert SD knowledge!

    "Can you hit? Can you trap? Can you block/redirect? Can you do these things utilizing the proper methods of motion?"


    Mantis has certain characteristics and if you studied any of the main branches, you would learn some things which are particular to it. If you don't learn the 4 main methods of using the mantis claw..then you are living in a "mantiddy" fantiddy fantasy world Wookie!!

    1.) (gou), embrace
    2.) (lou), grab
    3.) (cai),
    4.) Mantis hook (gua)chop

    etc.etc.

    If there is no mention of these in the SD version of mantis..then you can call it whatever you like..it aint the same...



    Which looks more "mantiddy" Grandmaster Wookie? If you think that this clip(from the 40 second mark to the 43 second mark):


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xcly0coJw

    looks like THIS clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwqNV...eature=related



    then I'd suggest lowering your dosage..

  2. #13907
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    Wook....nice breakdown. Enjoyed it and pretty much feel the same way. Trust you realize that LTN is not even close to open minded enough to consider you may have a point. Semantics aside, he is a believer in his system and that is that. I am right there with you in the if it works it is good department and I never bought into or got wrapped up into the history/linage thing, although I did enjoy the stories.

  3. #13908
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    all

    When I taught the Mantis Class I taught all those aspects listed, and SD Mantis is what it is and its good. Every Mantis guy I have known has discredited others in the same art, And I have known a bunch , instead of trying to best verbally the other style why not say haey all MA have something to offer. SD does too. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  4. #13909

    Thanks.

    Thanks Wook. Good stuff well said.

  5. #13910
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    [QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1137658]
    1.) (gou), embrace
    2.) (lou), grab
    3.) (cai),
    4.) Mantis hook (gua)chop
    QUOTE]

    LOL... Embrace, grab, hook, chop

    Without the Chinese lingo, this is absolutely.......banal! Even a tard knows those. LOL...

    Tell me...does your "embrace," "grab," "hook"/"chop" in any way differ from, oh, I don't know, any other embrace, grab, hook/chop? You had to learn it from a specific individual? You couldn't learn the same from a Kyokushin master? You got one man's interpretation, sure, and his lingo. But I bet you didn't get much more than a basic embrace, grab, hook/chop, dressed up as a mantis.

    Your version might vary in very minor and insignificant ways, but very significant for stylistic purposes.

  6. #13911
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    "Without the Chinese lingo, this is absolutely.......banal! Even a tard knows those. LOL.".

    Well YOU didn't..but I guess all of the sum total of what you learn is: " hit/ trap/block and redirect"

    It's a start..but if you think that's all that one learns in a mantis style..then think again.

  7. #13912
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    "Without the Chinese lingo, this is absolutely.......banal! Even a tard knows those. LOL.".

    Well YOU didn't..but I guess all of the sum total of what you learn is: " hit/ trap/block and redirect"

    It's a start..but if you think that's all that one learns in a mantis style..then think again.
    How about 7 hands, 8 hands, body leaning, elbow leaning, and the hand, foot, and leg linkages? They teach nothing?

    LOL....people looking in from their ivory towers outside have no idea that we learn the same stuff.

    Granted, I won't learn the whole 7 star system in SD/ST. I won't learn all of the weapons forms, etc. I won't be a pure "mantis" player. But then, I will learn the same principles, motions, strikes, angles, etc. And I'll probably supplement what I don't learn in my own Black Tigers, mantis forms, cranes, etc., with the root of the SD/ST system, which is the 30 short forms. In fact, my 30 short forms have a hint of Bai Yuan Tou Tao in them, simply based on my preference. Bai Yuan Tou Tao is just a delivery system for the core principles.

    You have your core motions/forms, and we have ours. Our core forms are a chopped-up version of the Tan Tui, broken into basic motions, and 30 chin-na (throws and locks). Its root is basically longfist (at least, my own experience in longfist tells me this, even outside of the "Tan Tui" root of the short forms). I learned a Chinese form of Tan Tui, but I haven't practised it in years. It's simply no good compared to the short forms, in my opinion--which is just an opinion.

    I will admit that many lower belt students (2nd black and below), and some higher belt sifus in our system do their kung fu "karatified," but many don't. At the same time, sometimes I see experienced pakua guys in our system with very pakua-like hands and stiffness in the arms when they do Tai Chi, just as I see many Tai Chi guys outside of our system perform pakua with too much softness. I see this as a mistake, just as one might see a mistake in my use of Tan Tui principles in Bai Yuan Tou Tao. But you can always tell where a particular practitioner has his root values--in Tai Chi, Pakua, Tiger, or our short form/longfist core.

    Where you as a practitioner strike a balance is largely a part of what your system/style/teacher teaches. This is why there is such diversity in Chinese martial arts. We have some Indonesian influence, some Japanese influence (GM Sin has a black belt in Judo, if I'm not mistaken), and a heavy Chinese root. We strike a different balance.

  8. #13913
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    "How about 7 hands, 8 hands, body leaning, elbow leaning, and the hand, foot, and leg linkages? "

    So you can hold your hands in 7 or 8 different ways, lean on someone,etc. I guess that's ok..but being able to assume a posture means nothing if you don't understand WHY you are doing it.






    They teach nothing?

    "LOL....people looking in from their ivory towers outside have no idea that we learn the same stuff."

    you confuse a few concepts or techniques with the totality of a style. I don't learn half of ONE wing chun form and then say I know the whole style now do I?



    "Granted, I won't learn the whole 7 star system in SD/ST. "

    Then you can't say it's the "same stuff". And it doesn't matter if you learned a few principles here and there and a few hand postures too. You don't take a bite or two from each portion of food of a 5 course meal and say you ate the whole thing



    "I won't learn all of the weapons forms, etc. I won't be a pure "mantis" player."

    This is more all or nothing thinking! The problem arises when someone learns a few techniques or concepts and then says "we learn mantis in SD".




    " I learned a Chinese form of Tan Tui, but I haven't practised it in years."

    As opposed to what? A form of Tan Tui originating in Iceland? Tam Tui is only from China!! When you learned it..let me guess..you told people "We learned the Tam Tui style in SD"? The more you talk..the sillier you sound!!



    "I will admit that many lower belt students (2nd black and below), and some higher belt sifus in our system do their kung fu "karatified," but many don't."

    Wouldn't a style w/ it's act together not have such a variance between instructors and schools? When I see 7 star mantis instructors do a form in a school in NY..it looks identical to the same form if a school was in South Carolina. Same w/ pretty much any legit style..






    "At the same time, sometimes I see experienced pakua guys in our system with very pakua-like hands "

    Amazing how that happens..aint it? Generally if you study a style for a dozen years of more,you incoporate it into how you move. I guess this opposed to how one would see "experienced pa kua guys with capoeira like moves"





    "and stiffness in the arms when they do Tai Chi, just as I see many Tai Chi guys outside of our system perform pakua with too much softness."

    Pa Kua is SUPPOSED to be done softly! It's an internal art. If someone does Pa Kua/Ba Gua with external ging like a Hung Ga guy..then something is amiss!






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  9. #13914
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    LOL....dude, how do you think mantis kung fu came about? Do you honestly think it was a little stubby-armed guy who sat in a his room and thought about how a mantis moves when it fights (with its insect "moves"), and then created the style ex nihilo? And do you think the current mantis styles are one ****geneous thing?

    Pure theology.

    People adapted kung fu to animal techniques. They violated previously-established systems. They opened up the traditional movements to new interpretations.

    They had open minds. They allowed arts to change. There is no "pure" kung fu except when your punch meets your opponent's face.

    As for the pakua bit, even you have to know that there's a difference between tai chi softness and pakua softness. Hell, even I know that.

    As for the bit about the necessity of learning an "entire system," the notion of the completeness of your system is completely subjective. As I said, the completeness of the ST/SD system, and my own take on that system, is short forms/chinna/tai chi/wrestling. I've never seen Shaolin groundfighting (or at least, Shaolin groundfighting not based on Judo or BJJ), and I can tell you that if you and I were going at it, I wouldn't fight you stand-up. LOL. I could even break out into "pakua capoeira" if I liked, since I've studied both arts. I could call it "Laurel and Hardy" style if I liked.

  10. #13915
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    As for the 5 course meal...that one had me chuckling. Do you have to eat the whole chicken to know that you're eating chicken? Do you get to its "essence" only by devouring the chicken to its bones? And where do you stop? Do you eat the bones, suck the marrows, and lap up the grease? Do you eat a chicken-only diet, and do you limit your plate to 5 kinds of chicken?

    Maybe if you tasted some other foods, you might realize:

    "It all tastes like chicken."

    Open your mind, buddy. The whole "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none" argument has its counterpoint: "You'll get hit by the same technique you rule out of probability by focusing on pure refinement." There's a reason why every fighter worth his sand starts with jab-jab-cross.

    Answers to irrelevant questions you raise:

    I didn't see the value in my, yes, "Chinese" Tan Tui. Didn't give the old "same as in SD/ST" argument. They're different, but the core motions are the same.

    How many ways can you dress up a punch? Is there such a thing as a mantis punch? I have specific punches and hand forms that only appear in mantis forms, but what is a mantis punch if it doesn't land?

    A punch is only a punch when it hits, and then it's just a punch. It's not a mantis punch. You're confusing theory with practice.

    Maybe you should take some prozac. Seems like you're all hyped up on sugar....and it's not even Halloween yet.
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 10-18-2011 at 04:23 PM.

  11. #13916
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    "Do you get it's essence by devouring the chicken to it's bones?"

    Do you call yourself a garage car mechanic by learning just how to check your oil and antifreeze levels? How about..do you call yourself a "historian" just because you read "Articles of the confederacy"? Nuff said.

    "Pure theology"

    So you and Si Jo Wang Lang were tight back in the day eh? I guess after dropping acid together, he said it came to him in a vision. No..seriously..were you there?

    "Hell even I know that"

    Yipee!!

    "I've never seen Shaolin groundfighting(or at least Shaolin groundfighting not based on BJJ...."

    Ever hear of Shuai-Jiao?

    "I could even break out my Pa Kua Capoeria if I liked"

    And that would still probably be more effective than SD.

    What I think would be a fine idea sir..is to get a back issue of the "top 100 kung fu styles of the millenium" issue (Gene Ching's magazine..yes..the same Gene Ching who is a moderator on this site) and read it from front to back. Hint: there is no mention of Sin Kwang, Su Kong, a Shao-lin temple in Indonesia, a style with 900 forms or anything else.

    For someone who ostensibly claims to know mantis and for someone who seems to express an intererest in it..why don't you do yourself a favor and study some mantis(regardless of branch) for a while?

    There has got to be some in your neck of the woods(what state are you in btw? When in doubt..google)

  12. #13917
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaterthanNever View Post
    "Do you get it's essence by devouring the chicken to it's bones?"

    Do you call yourself a garage car mechanic by learning just how to check your oil and antifreeze levels? How about..do you call yourself a "historian" just because you read "Articles of the confederacy"? Nuff said.

    "Pure theology"

    So you and Si Jo Wang Lang were tight back in the day eh? I guess after dropping acid together, he said it came to him in a vision. No..seriously..were you there?

    "Hell even I know that"

    Yipee!!

    "I've never seen Shaolin groundfighting(or at least Shaolin groundfighting not based on BJJ...."

    Ever hear of Shuai-Jiao?

    "I could even break out my Pa Kua Capoeria if I liked"

    And that would still probably be more effective than SD.

    What I think would be a fine idea sir..is to get a back issue of the "top 100 kung fu styles of the millenium" issue (Gene Ching's magazine..yes..the same Gene Ching who is a moderator on this site) and read it from front to back. Hint: there is no mention of Sin Kwang, Su Kong, a Shao-lin temple in Indonesia, a style with 900 forms or anything else.

    For someone who ostensibly claims to know mantis and for someone who seems to express an intererest in it..why don't you do yourself a favor and study some mantis(regardless of branch) for a while?

    There has got to be some in your neck of the woods(what state are you in btw? When in doubt..google)
    Did a trial in NPM and SPM, nothing lasting. Didn't like the schools. No slouches at either one, but they had impossible-to-work-with training schedules, and distance was an issue.

    #1. I don't have any hate for traditional PM. I don't have hate for any MA, as long as people are training, having fun, learning, etc.

    #2. There is a valid critique of SD/ST as a martial system, but you don't know it b/c you don't know the system or its contents. If your beef is simply advertising, you're still not talking martial knowledge. I don't like the advertising either, but I am talking martial knowledge with you.

    #3. I can guarantee that you could do SD/ST forms, just like I can do mantis forms. IT's not a one-way street. A punch is a punch, and a kick is a kick. Open minds learn with patience. Closed minds don't.

    #4. If you don't know 7 hands, 8 hands, mantis leaning, or the linkages, then you don't know what we know (that is, you don't have comprehensive knowledge of the specific principles that SD practitioners learn in their mantis system), even though you might know those same principles in your own system.

    #5. Martial systems are syncretic, and they largely develop like any other system of thought---through spontaneous order (self-interested exchanges of practitioners looking for new outlets and new techniques). MMA is proof of this. Trial-and-error is the best method of proofing techs, but in medieval China, if you screwed up, you died. What is the likelihood that Wang Lang--like a medieval Kim Jong Il--created the martial world from scratch? Quite a leap of faith. And without a method of proofing his techniques, he couldn't so much as develop an idea of martial effectiveness.

    I'll agree that sometimes it takes a genius to create something great; but it takes "demand" for that something to really take off. I can guarantee that Wang Lang didn't create the style from scratch, since he had to rely upon principles of fighting common to all other systems of fighting.

  13. #13918
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    wow

    So did u know Wang Lang during that time as well. Your argument is silly. LTN. If SD punch hits u u are still hit . I do wonder what is a Mantis Punch LOL. Makes me laugh. So i guess all people will have an opinion we know what they are like. BTW GM Sin The has never said we know Hung Gar or Tang Lang as a whole and we are not masters of all styles included in our SD style I dont know where you heard that ????? KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  14. #13919
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    "BTW GM Sin The has never said we know Hung Gar or Tang Lang as a whole and we are not masters of all styles included in our SD style I dont know where you heard that ????? "

    I'm going to go with the "900 forms from 100 styles"(claim on the website). Er..actually..I think it was "900 styles". Worth mentioning..I'd estimate that there are probably not even 900 actual styles of kung fu practiced today. Oh that's right..only Sin Kwang learned them all..right?

    Then you've got the "GM The talks about the history of the Tiger Crane forms" part on his clip, the listing of SD schools teaching "mantis"..yet there is no listing of what form/forms are taught? Is the form "Bung Bo" taught? Of Zhai Yao? Or "Da Fan Che"?

    From the website:


    Curriculum
    The Kung Fu knowledge taught at the Chinese Shaolin Centers is comprised of various colorful styles of skill and training, making up the Shaolin System available today. Some of the forms and styles we teach are:

    Animal Forms
    •Black Tiger (Hei Hu)
    •White Crane (Pai Hao)
    •Monkey (Hou Chuan)
    •Preying Mantis (Tang Lang)
    •Tiger/Crane form (He/Hu Suang Hsing)
    •Shaolin Original Five Animal form (Shaolin U Hsing Chuan)
    Internal Arts
    •Ta Mo's I Chin Ching (Muscle-Tendon Change Classic)
    •Tai Chi Chuan( Grand Ultimate Fist)
    •Pa Kua Chang (8 Changes of the Palms)
    •Hsing I Chuan (Mind/Form Fist)
    Classical Weapons Training
    •Monk's Staff (Pang)
    •Broadsword (Tao)
    •Kwan Tao
    •Spear (Chiang)
    •Double-edged Sword (Chien)
    •Tiger Hook Swords (Hu Tou Gou)
    •Butterfly Swords (Tie' Tao)
    •Iron Fan(San)
    •3-Sectional Staff (San Chie Kuen)
    •9-Sectional Steel Whip (Chou Chie San Pien)
    Fighting Styles
    •Hua Mountain Fist
    •Northern & Southern Fist
    •Chi Na
    •Lohans
    For more information about
    Last edited by LaterthanNever; 10-19-2011 at 08:51 AM.

  15. #13920
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    No its 900 Forms of which I have learned or participated in 165 the way I count. Not styles. Look at your list it does not say style it says forms. KC
    BTW I listed the forms taught in our Tang Lang system.
    A Fool is Born every Day !

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