View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

Voters
57. You may not vote on this poll
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
Page 937 of 1335 FirstFirst ... 4378378879279359369379389399479871037 ... LastLast
Results 14,041 to 14,055 of 20011

Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #14041
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Posts
    5,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    yeah By family taught this material that Sin The fabricated so what does that say?
    "Ng" family. Stupid auto correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  2. #14042
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    kentucky
    Posts
    350
    lol sounds like we may know the some of the same people.
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  3. #14043
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    kentucky
    Posts
    350
    I was told of him changing things and how some forms were new, just wasn't told how new. But i feel from what all i have seen that he was taking parts of true material and breaking it down for us impatient what people... lol... lets be honest on here can be patient, we all want the latest and greatest and we want it NOW
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  4. #14044
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    kentucky
    Posts
    350
    sorry........ white people
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  5. #14045
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    94
    Eh, I knew enough about copyright law to know that the forms had to be relatively new to be copywritten.

    Frankly, I don't believe that the order of the techniques in the form (for the most part, some moves do flow from one another) aren't really important. Nothing said in here indicates that the individual techniques aren't authentic.

    If I was all about collecting only forms, I guess I might be upset about it. But I got into the system because I wanted to learn martial arts, and a friend said they had a good experience with this system.

    I don't care if someone put the forms together 10 years ago or 2000 years ago. Either they work or they don't. Its still a good workout, and still just as interesting to me. Shaolin is really just a brand name anyway, when you come down to it. The material either stands on its own or it doesn't. I like the material I have learned.
    Sith Legal Kung Fu is unstoppable.

  6. #14046
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    376
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    "Ng" family. Stupid auto correct.
    What material did they use?

  7. #14047
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Posts
    5,520
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    What material did they use?
    Fei Hu and Lo Han Chien for sure. When I log into my work system, I'll post a clip of one of their former students doing parts of these forms and an e-mail he answered confirming that he learned these forms from an NG family practitioner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  8. #14048
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    kentucky
    Posts
    350
    also way to break for doors, yellow belt form... i have a student with family in the system and they were watching class and talked to me about what all we did the same.
    ...or is there something i have missed a glimpse of phantoms in the mist. Traveling down a dusty road bent forward with this heavy load..

  9. #14049
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    376
    Blog Entries
    3
    I'd like to see that.

  10. #14050
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    1,671
    Most here agree choreography (forms) isn't all that important to them and are more concerned with the validity of the techniques. What I haven't heard is anyone address the multiple styles issue (Mantis, Bagua, etc.).

    How does any of this new info relate to one of the biggest jabs at SD, how can one person teach, or even learn, so many completely different styles?

    If he wasn't truthful about the form origins why believe he knows the styles he claims to know?
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  11. #14051
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    322
    What I want to know is exactly what material is he claiming is his, and what is traditional shaolin from his teacher(s). When he says "50 to 60 materials", who knows what that means? Is he counting every short form, sparring technique, chin na, one step, nunchaku and staff spin as a separate form/"material"? If so, there is around 100 right there.
    There are not 50 or 60 different forms up to black belt, even including 1st black belt. Or there are many more than that, if you count all the various short forms individually. I guess we'd all like to see what he put on that DVD. I guess it really doesn't matter, except for my own curiosity and for the sake of my own personal integrity. I am not going to just stop practicing the forms I like to practice, but I have always had a thing about knowing where they came from.
    It seems like after this hearing, with some of the business practices having light shed on them, there may be a decline in SD/CSC. Or if not, at least more people speaking out about what they know and maybe an adjustment in their advertising practices. Will this let the people who have been with him since the 60's and 70's start telling the truth about the material?
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  12. #14052
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Posts
    5,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    What I want to know is exactly what material is he claiming is his, and what is traditional shaolin from his teacher(s). When he says "50 to 60 materials", who knows what that means? Is he counting every short form, sparring technique, chin na, one step, nunchaku and staff spin as a separate form/"material"? If so, there is around 100 right there.
    There are not 50 or 60 different forms up to black belt, even including 1st black belt. Or there are many more than that, if you count all the various short forms individually. I guess we'd all like to see what he put on that DVD. I guess it really doesn't matter, except for my own curiosity and for the sake of my own personal integrity. I am not going to just stop practicing the forms I like to practice, but I have always had a thing about knowing where they came from.
    It seems like after this hearing, with some of the business practices having light shed on them, there may be a decline in SD/CSC. Or if not, at least more people speaking out about what they know and maybe an adjustment in their advertising practices. Will this let the people who have been with him since the 60's and 70's start telling the truth about the material?
    Leto, it's hard to tell just from reading the transcript, and not having the exhibits they were referring to in order to put the testimony in context, but it seemed to me that he referred to the 20 sparring techniques as one form, nunchucku spins as one form, self-defense techniques as one form, ippons as one form, 1-30 short form as one form etc. for purposes of the copyright.

    This lawyer never quizzed The on whether he learned some forms/systems from books/videos (a common accuasation of SD). He did ask him how many forms The knew and The claimed he could not remember all 900, maybe 300 right now. But later it seemed like that number was different when he was talking about the number of forms that were tradiational and taught to him by Master Ie.

    So who knows? If I were teaching this material, and had been telling my students this was "traditional shaolin kung fu" I would have to do some soul searching as to how I represented things now. If the peopel that teach SD are going to overcome this, they need to start being upfront about waht they teach and clearly deliniate what is from The and what was taught to The from master Ie. Trouble is, most teachers are not privy to that information and were told that it is all traditional.

    Back in the 80s and 90s when Sin The brought these types of suits you really didn't have to worry about depositions getting poseted online and it was very difficult to get copies of court materials unless you went to the Clerk of the court where the lawsuit was filed. Now it is a different world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  13. #14053
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    322
    Yes, it sure is a different world, and I'd say in this case we're better for it. We have a whole world of sharing that is possible, and it is harder to keep things hidden.
    I did finally get to read through the whole thing, and I agree with you, it sounds like he is referring to the 30 short forms as a single form. He also mentions that the last form on the video was a black tiger form, and that they were presented in curriculum order. That was one question I had, if he considered the black tigers as one of the traditional shaolin. Apparently they are his creations.

    I am skeptical that he is being completely forthright about everything he was questioned about (why would he be?). And there is the matter of the other forms he created, since the time of the VHS. What are they? What exactly did he learn from Ie Chang Ming? He could have learned a lot if he was really training every day before and after school for four or five years. But not 900 forms. Not even 300 forms. Someone is going to have to take him up on the rest of this stuff some day.

    There are so many other things I would have asked him under oath, but I guess none of it would have been applicable to the purpose of he deposition. I would have asked him if his senior students knew how much of the style was invented by him, and if he told them or they agreed to hide that information. He was quite evasive as it was on several topics they did ask, regarding the content of the book and the advertised claims.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  14. #14054

    Two cents

    At the risk of sounding like an apologist, I chose SD because I went to several kung fu schools in the DC area and the SD school was the least McDojo-y fees wise, if you can believe that, and because the sifu was the most engaged and best martial artist of the 5 or 6 I visited.

    As for the material, I was frankly impressed with the organization of it and how the material builds on itself. Frankly, that alone made me a little skeptical as to it's ancient origins. That and the fact that a large number of Chinese MA instructors exaggerate their lineage claims. Finally, Im not a purist. I think MA should evolve. I like some preservation but I expect to see new "masters" add things and not merely preserve.

    I think SD is a legitimately viable MA. There are those on the board who have never been SD supporters who nonetheless admit that SD practitioners tend to be in shape and are pretty good fighters. Their chief complaint is that the claims were bogus. I agree with those people. They need to market themselves for what they are: a system of Chinese origin, with Indonesian influence and additions by the current grandmaster, who, while having serious issues with the truth, is still a very good martial artist.

    I frankly think the search for the "real shaolin" is a larpers farce.

  15. #14055

    Video

    I'm going to check with an IP lawyer but I suspect that videos submitted with a patent application are probably publicly available and would be given to a requestor for reproduction costs plus a nominal fee.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •