View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #14161
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    I'll add this. Much like meecer's comment I was told that our 30 short form were a distillation of the original 108 Lohan which were simplified. That's ok if Sin The knew the original 108. But he said, [direct quote from page 46 and 47 of his deposition]

    Q: Those 30 different kata were not something that you created yourself; correct?

    A: Not correct. I created myself.

    Q: Okay. Don't you in your book say that these 30 kata are part of a system of 108?

    A: That is a legend that they have 108 short form, but nobody ever seen it.

    Q: Okay. So you don't know how to do the 108 form?

    A: That is correct.

    Q: Okay. And of the 30 that you teach, those are part of the 108 form>

    A: No. That's part I created.

    Q: Okay. So it's not part of some ancient system, it's something you made up yourself?

    A: Correct.

    Q: So in your book when you say that it's part of the 108 form, ancient form, you're not telling the truth?

    A: No, not telling the truth. But because legend has it that it's 108 form.

    With all respect to Bill Leonard's letter, there's no squaring this testimony with what we were told. It's one thing to know the 108 form, and pick and choose ones to teach for structural and progressive purposes, but it's another to misrepresent the origins. Sin The did not say he took forms he knew and simplified them. He said he created forms, based upon legends, from whole cloth.

    Now, he created the forms from his own knowledge and understanding of what he learned in Indonesia. And the forms do provide steady and progressive training of fundamental techniques that build upon one another and effectively train a beginner in martial arts. They have practical and effective applications behind them. I cannot fault the efficacy of the form and have to give some respect to Sin The as a martial artist and a teacher for creating these forms. But I cannot condone lying about its origins to protect what is a business investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  2. #14162
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    108

    I 1st learned 8 of the 30 Short forms in 1981 I was told then they were part of the 108, the teacher at the time was 2nd BB. KC Nuff said!
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  3. #14163
    Quote Originally Posted by shen ku View Post
    meecer you have to do more then one or how will us people just a little to the west of you ever keep in touch,, cause you know we always forget about emailing....
    Ah ha!! I finally figured out who another person is on here. Some people are so secretive about their identities on here. In fact some cowards make up new names so they can come on here and bash GM Sin. It is nice to see familiar faces .. er names.

    New years resolution .. going to do better at keeping in touch. (I didn't mention what year I was going to make this resolution) Are you on facebook? For me that's been the best way to keep up with people.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  4. #14164

    Here's the deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    What EML says seems to make sense to me. Can anyone, with personal (not hearsay) knowledge dispute what EML says was said back then -- which others have said here (that the circumstances were well known then and just not re-discussed over the years)?

    Doesn't change the "book source" discussion, but it appears credible what EML says, confirming what others have suggested here, as to the origination of the lower belt material.
    Stop believing what others tell you. Take the deposition transcript and then lay it beside the book that Sin The wrote with Jim Halladay and next to the information found on Sin The's own website. If you can find a logical way to make all the statements found in all three of those sources true, then you have a better analytical mind than I do. The simple fact is that this isn't something that wasn't discussed because it was well settled. It was misrepresented and affirmatively so.

    I'm with JP; it doesn't effect the efficacy of the sytem, it just casts doubts on all claims as to its origins. I think the system is genious in the way it builds on itself and as a practical system. However, I think anyone who claims that there isn't some purposeful misrepresentation is either logically unsound or cultified.

  5. #14165
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    From what I've seen on video I'm still not convinced the moves are correct or valid. Previously on here I posted a link to a 2000 demo in Kentucky (the cane tonfa's) and I see moves ranging from total crap to recognizable but done incorrectly. Quite a few I'm hard pressed to find any possible application.

    Example - after the double canes a black belt does a single broadsword set where he holds his hand up high and kicks it. Shows nice flexability but why is he kicking his hand? I know what he's supposed to be doing but that isn't what he's actually doing so my guess is he doesn't know the app but it looks impressive.

    There's also a girl doing a set with some really wavy hand motions that looks more like dance moves than martial arts. There seems to be plenty to pick apart in that sampling of SD material.

    To me there appears to be mostly fluff with a just few legit moves in these sets. Are these just performance sets?
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  6. #14166
    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    From what I've seen on video I'm still not convinced the moves are correct or valid. Previously on here I posted a link to a 2000 demo in Kentucky (the cane tonfa's) and I see moves ranging from total crap to recognizable but done incorrectly. Quite a few I'm hard pressed to find any posible application.

    Example - after the double canes a black belt does a single broadsword set where he holds his hand up high and kicks it. Shows nice flexability but why is he kicking his hand? I know what he's supposed to be doing but that isn't what he's actually doing so my guess is he doesn't know the app but it looks impressive.

    There's also a girl doing a set with some really wavy hand motions that looks more like dance moves than martial arts. There seems to be plenty to pick apart in that sampling of SD material.

    To me there appears to be mostly fluff with a just few legit moves in these sets. Are these just performance sets?
    Could you repost the link?
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  7. #14167
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    The video is here.

    I have a keen eye for this stuff because my own style (Wah Lum) does this alot, and I see students make the same high kick mistake. But I would think a Black Belt would know better.

    I've also seen an SD Mantis form that's mostly just poking with mantis claws, something rarely found in traditional Northern Mantis.
    Last edited by Yao Sing; 04-05-2012 at 11:35 AM.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  8. #14168
    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    The video is here.

    I have a keen eye for this stuff because my own style (Wah Lum) does this alot, and I see students make the same high kick mistake. But I would think a Black Belt would know better.

    I've also seen an SD Mantis form that's mostly just poking with mantis claws, something rarely found in traditional Northern Mantis.
    I believe that is what we call 'Second level broadsword.' I have not learned that one, so I can't comment on it. My curriculum doesn't contain this newer released material.

    You state: There's also a girl doing a set with some really wavy hand motions that looks more like dance moves than martial arts

    You may be referring to the gal doing our Black Tiger Flips The Body form. It's hard for me to comment on that one as well, it was done very differently than the way we teach. Some of that I can attribute to 'stylizing' it for the demo.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  9. #14169
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    since they were all made up, does it matter anymore?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #14170
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    since they were all made up, does it matter anymore?
    They aren't all made up. You didn't read the deposition thoroughly. The bulk of the material is from Grandmaster Ie. Many made that assumption on the other thread Master Killer started. I assume they simply read what our critics were saying and didn't read the deposition themselves.

    Correction: Everything we study is made up, the question is when.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  11. #14171
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    since they were all made up, does it matter anymore?
    Well it matters in the sense that the current response is that the forms might be made up but the underlying material is solid. I disagree based on what I've seen so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    whatever they are, they are painful to watch...
    I just feel bad for the people who think they are seeing something great. And sometimes feel a little embarrassed for the performers who don't know how they look to the more knowledgeable viewers.

    Like I said I see that sometimes in lower level students from my own style so maybe I'm more sensitive to it than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    your grandmaster drives like a monkey in heat...
    I've been with Sifu driving like that in the pouring rain down I-4. And he called me Iron Man for driving through the night back to the Temple from Knoxville after a long "grand opening" day while everyone else slept. Must be the Kung Fu.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  12. #14172
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    I think he drives by Qi, not eyes.

    Anyhow, I just want to contribute to the discussion objectively. The human mind is really good at rationalizing things. Like with the hypnotist shows. Give them a silly action to do after they wake up and after they do it they will rationalize their silly action.

    The SD are doing that now so I'm forcing a closer look. If I'm wrong the fine but it doesn't hurt to take the rose colored glasses off and look at it again.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  13. #14173
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    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  14. #14174
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    Kicking the hand

    There is no martial application (at least that I will believe) to kicking your own hand. It is taught to us as beginers when we were first taught cresent kicks (smash kicks as my teachers called them) as a tool to focus the vector of the kick (and it makes a nice sound). I did it when I was a beginer but stopped doing it as I advanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  15. #14175
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    Sorry I didn't explain completely. It's not just kicking the hand, specifically kicking the hand with the high toe kick.

    People like to put their hand really high then kick it trying to be impressive (and it usually works if you don't understand the app).

    Anyhow you aren't kicking the hand, you're kicking the face. The hand is pulling the head down into the kick. Unfortunately you rarely see anyone pulling the head down and most can't explain what they're doing when asked.

    This, I feel, is one reason why the fighting doesn't look like the forms. The forms aren't done correctly. There's no reason I can see for the moves to be completely different than how they are in the forms, except for variations due to opponent size etc.

    But then I'm usually in the minority with how I see things. But it is one of my pet peeves.

    Oh, and kicking the hand with a crescent can be applied the same way, pushing the head into the kick. Like an elbow smash to the head. You hit your elbow into your hand in the form. In a fight the head is in between the elbow and the hand. So you don't put your hand to the side and then hit it with your elbow in your form, they meet in the middle straight in front of you. Same when applying it.
    Last edited by Yao Sing; 04-05-2012 at 04:14 PM.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

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