Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Yao Sing]

Not to be picking on you JP or putting you down (I know you can handle criticism) but you're an SD black belt and didn't know that app. The guy in the video I referenced had on a worn out black belt and appears (based on his performance) not to know that so how can I tell if SKT evens knows it?

Now whether you, or the guy in the vid is a good fighter or not is irrelevant since most CMA fighting doesn't consist of moves from the style. You don't need much more than a couple of blocks, couple of punches and kicks to be a good fighter.

[bodhi warrior]

My instructor trained in SD for over 20 years. He taught us to envision grabbing the head and smashing it into the foot. He also wanted us to think of it as a target.

[themeecer]

Anyhow you aren't kicking the hand, you're kicking the face. The hand is pulling the head down into the kick. Unfortunately you rarely see anyone pulling the head down and most can't explain what they're doing when asked.


Oh, and kicking the hand with a crescent can be applied the same way, pushing the head into the kick.

That is how we teach it. We use these in kicking drills as we walk across the floor.

[KungfuCasting]

wooow dangerous picture whaha very cool!

I really did ready everything wrong

[Leto]

There is no martial application (at least that I will believe) to kicking your own hand. It is taught to us as beginers when we were first taught cresent kicks (smash kicks as my teachers called them) as a tool to focus the vector of the kick (and it makes a nice sound). I did it when I was a beginer but stopped doing it as I advanced.

I believe kicking your own hand evolved out of the type of application Yao Sing mentioned. The way it is performed in modern wushu is obviously not caring about any application, and has devolved into a display of flexibility. But in taijiquan, the hand which separates with the leg during the kicking techniques is a grab and hold, with the kick going into the ribs or lower body. I believe this is the same in traditional shaolin forms where you kick the hand, such as xiao hong quan. In my opinion, kicking head height in practice is just for flexibility and strength, application will mostly be mid-lower level kicks. It's always possible to pull someone's head down, with the hand and foot meeting in the middle. I was not taught this in SD/CSC, but picked it up from later instruction. As much as I did learn, and have the opportunity to work with partners and spar, there was also a lot of fundamental stuff I didn't learn from CSC. I am glad I had ten years of prior training going into it, I was able to superimpose the new training on the old to make something more effective than I would have had if I started in CSC with no prior experience.

[MasterKiller]

They aren't all made up. You didn't read the deposition thoroughly. The bulk of the material is from Grandmaster Ie. Many made that assumption on the other thread Master Killer started. I assume they simply read what our critics were saying and didn't read the deposition themselves.

Correction: Everything we study is made up, the question is when.

A Let me explain this. My material I cleared some and he had cleared some, too. But they are common bound material that is Shaolin Kung Fu. And so it is understood I teach my material and then Shaolin Kung Fu as well. As a matter of fact my material is around 50 something to 60 material, but Shaolin Kung Fu I taught over a hundred. So likewise, you know.

60 forms he admits to making up. How many do you know?

[Judge Pen]

Not to be picking on you JP or putting you down (I know you can handle criticism) but you're an SD black belt and didn't know that app. The guy in the video I referenced had on a worn out black belt and appears (based on his performance) not to know that so how can I tell if SKT evens knows it?

Now whether you, or the guy in the vid is a good fighter or not is irrelevant since most CMA fighting doesn't consist of moves from the style. You don't need much more than a couple of blocks, couple of punches and kicks to be a good fighter.

I've heard the explanation of pulling the head down to kick the head. Some of the more advanced forms I have learned, specifically the books of hua, have that application that are expressed in the form in a more realistic manner. But you were referencing the high kick to the hand which I took as different. If you're hand is still that high when the foot connects then either you are not doing a very good job of pulling the head down or you are fighting Yao Ming. As it is taught and usually performed in the beginner SD forms I see it as a training tool and not a viable application.

[Judge Pen]

On to your second point, which is more of a comment on fighting with all TMA or TCMA and not just SD, true you only need a handful of punches, blocks, kicks etc to be can effective fighter, but I believe that different forms broaden your ability to move, evade counter, etc., even if you are still employing the same techniques. By continuing to train your body and expand our movements you can use your fundamental techniques more effectively. At least that is my humble opinion.

[Yao Sing]

Well I was just pre-empting the argument that if you're a good fighter it doesn't matter that you do made up forms without knowing the apps. That seems to be the fall back when one can't counter the made up forms accusation. I believe that's already been said here or in the other thread.

I hate being so distrustfull but after I explained the app everyone comes out of the woodwork claiming that's how they learned/taught it and yet there's that video of an SD black belt doing the "I don't really know why I'm kicking this way but don't I look good" high kick hitting his hand.

I debated how long I should wait before providing the answser but when you said "There is no martial application (at least that I will believe) to kicking your own hand." I figured I made my point.

Now you may respond with "oh, I thought you meant an app for kicking the hand, not what is the app for what the performer in the video is doing" or something to that effect. I think that's a lame attemt to CYA. I was clearly talking about the performer not knowing the app for what he is doing.

So, any suggestions to why he's doing it wrong multiple times in that form? Maybe he's doing it on purpose because it's a public demo and doesn't want secret info going out for free.

Maybe you guys can point to a better representation of SD material?

[Leto]

Well I was just pre-empting the argument that if you're a good fighter it doesn't matter that you do made up forms without knowing the apps. That seems to be the fall back when one can't counter the made up forms accusation. I believe that's already been said here or in the other thread.

I hate being so distrustfull but after I explained the app everyone comes out of the woodwork claiming that's how they learned/taught it and yet there's that video of an SD black belt doing the "I don't really know why I'm kicking this way but don't I look good" high kick hitting his hand.

I debated how long I should wait before providing the answser but when you said "There is no martial application (at least that I will believe) to kicking your own hand." I figured I made my point.

Now you may respond with "oh, I thought you meant an app for kicking the hand, not what is the app for what the performer in the video is doing" or something to that effect. I think that's a lame attemt to CYA. I was clearly talking about the performer not knowing the app for what he is doing.

So, any suggestions to why he's doing it wrong multiple times in that form? Maybe he's doing it on purpose because it's a public demo and doesn't want secret info going out for free.

Maybe you guys can point to a better representation of SD material?

Haven't seen too many good demo's of SD material, online or in person. While I was in CSC, at big events and tests when people from all over were gathered together, I did see a couple people who caught my eye as good performers. I don't know that my performance is so good either, though it would be better now than it was five or six years ago, the last time I video'd myself. Of course, my performance wouldn't be representative of what is taught in SD/CSC either. Even while I was still in CSC I did things a bit differently than my teacher taught, just because my fundamentals were different. I was never corrected or asked to alter anything, so I just kept doing what felt right, even if it meant moving differently from my teacher and everyone else.

[Judge Pen]

Well I was just pre-empting the argument that if you're a good fighter it doesn't matter that you do made up forms without knowing the apps. That seems to be the fall back when one can't counter the made up forms accusation. I believe that's already been said here or in the other thread.

I hate being so distrustfull but after I explained the app everyone comes out of the woodwork claiming that's how they learned/taught it and yet there's that video of an SD black belt doing the "I don't really know why I'm kicking this way but don't I look good" high kick hitting his hand.

I debated how long I should wait before providing the answser but when you said "There is no martial application (at least that I will believe) to kicking your own hand." I figured I made my point.

Now you may respond with "oh, I thought you meant an app for kicking the hand, not what is the app for what the performer in the video is doing" or something to that effect. I think that's a lame attemt to CYA. I was clearly talking about the performer not knowing the app for what he is doing.

So, any suggestions to why he's doing it wrong multiple times in that form? Maybe he's doing it on purpose because it's a public demo and doesn't want secret info going out for free.

Maybe you guys can point to a better representation of SD material?

Not CYA. I still don't believe there is a valid marial application to kicking your hand in that manner (which is the context we discussed and how I tried to phrase my discussion--very poorly apparently). I didn't say that we were not told that you grab the head and bring the head to your foot, I just don't think it is expressed properly by the performer or in the begining SD forms where it is taught that way. I do not by that application when the movement doesn't bring the hand to the foot to represent the pulling that would be required.

Why does he do it that way in the form? I don't know. Maybe he doesn't know (and I understand your point that he should because his belt implies he has been training a while. More likely he likes the nice sound it makes and thinks it looks cool for performance reasons. I can only speak for me. I've been told many applications for forms that I didn't buy personally.

[Judge Pen]

If you're looking for good demos of forms, then I would look for material performed by Master Garry Mullins. He is a good forms person in SD. I have videos of him, but as he was one of my former teachers I don't feel right about putting up videos of him on the internet withnout his permission. I think there are some clips out there on youtube, but not many. I've put videos of myself out there before, but I would never hold myself out to be good a forms performance.

[bodhi warrior]

If you're looking for good demos of forms, then I would look for material performed by Master Garry Mullins. He is a good forms person in SD. I have videos of him, but as he was one of my former teachers I don't feel right about putting up videos of him on the internet withnout his permission. I think there are some clips out there on youtube, but not many. I've put videos of myself out there before, but I would never hold myself out to be good a forms performance.

I've seen videos of master Mullins. And I agree he is very good at performing material. And he looks like a tough mofo too.

[RJ797]

There is no doubt Garry Mullins and his sons are among - if not the very best kung fu people in Shaolin Do. There are some videos out there of him - including later in the same video everyone has been talking about with the wavy arm girl and the hand slapping the foot.

However, it is pointless to have a discussion with someone who is putting himself forth as an expert because he trains in Wah Lum without some reference of their skill. Is there a place we can see a current video of Yao Sing performing?

and yes Garry Mullins is a bad mofo. He and Frank Mingione are the two best 8th Degrees.

Mike Reid down in Atlanta has been around a long time and haven't heard of anyone willing to test their fighting skills against him yet. Why is that?

[shen ku]

well frank is the one they are talking about in the video of hm doing the sword form and kicking is foot/

as for anytime the hand hits the foot or elbow or hand, this is not always smashing the head, i have some very interesting spins of how to apply these things but it is not as easy to type as it is to show?? maybe someday i"ll make it down to knoxville and share with JP, its just different but very usefull for me