View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #14266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    if you look at xiaohongquan, the first slap kick for an example, the way the the kick slaps the hand is done with a slight outward crescent. in this particular example, you actually are extending your self to grab your opponent. stabilization and follow through with this example. you are also setting yourself up to clinch/grapple/throw/knee immediatly upon follow up from the kick. however you also have to think of the source of the material. what kind of fail shaolin devoted practitioner doesnt have the flexability for that?

    in regards to front snap kicks slapping the hand, i would agree that its a type of cross training. if you can do a high front snap kick and easily kick your hand without strain, that will ensure you have a greater ability for stability and foundation during a standard front kick by consistantly training that flexability and maneuverability. also, if your arent a total puss, you will kick the sh!t outa your hand every time to help toughen em up. kungfu is all about multi tasking.
    The two techniques in Xiao Hong Quan that you speak of are both solid applications, as for the front kick, the applications is a strike to the eyes with the hand while simuletaneously kicking the groin, misdirection, doing two things at the same time. The hand is kicked for effect, making a cool sound, conditioning the hand etc. Just as RDH said earlier. The hope is that the opponent can block at best one but the other will get through, whichever lands first. You are not really supposed to slap the foot the hand shoots out delivering a strike and the kick meets it.

  2. #14267
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    Quote Originally Posted by sha0lin1 View Post
    The two techniques in Xiao Hong Quan that you speak of are both solid applications, as for the front kick, the applications is a strike to the eyes with the hand while simuletaneously kicking the groin, misdirection, doing two things at the same time. The hand is kicked for effect, making a cool sound, conditioning the hand etc. Just as RDH said earlier. The hope is that the opponent can block at best one but the other will get through, whichever lands first. You are not really supposed to slap the foot the hand shoots out delivering a strike and the kick meets it.
    In our fabricated short forms the "hit kick" is a fundamental technique for the reasons you mention above (which are excellent applications), but when we do those forms, we typically do not kick the hand unless the kick is a straight leg front kick or an inside or outside cresent kick. I still believe the kicking the hand is more for conditioning, flexibility, focus and performance affect. With the application if it is the simultaneous strike, then kicking the hand is not necessary. If it is "pulling the head toward the hand" then the form should have the motion of also moving the hand toward the foot. One of the application exceptions I can think of right now is our short form #s 13 and 14 which include a block and then kicking the hand that you have just blocked with. But here the hand isn't high above your head and the application is to disarm or disable the imagined opponents attacking limb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  3. #14268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    but when we do those forms, we typically do not kick the hand unless the kick is a straight leg front kick or an inside or outside cresent kick. I still believe the kicking the hand is more for conditioning, flexibility, focus and performance affect. With the application if it is the simultaneous strike, then kicking the hand is not necessary. If it is "pulling the head toward the hand" then the form should have the motion of also moving the hand toward the foot.
    JP just invented the correct and passed it off as an ancient secret.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  4. #14269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Noob View Post
    Exactly! There was an opportunity to step back and ensure that the product was, to borrow some business lingo, more forthrightly branded and marketed without, in my opinion, doing any more damage than was done by the public availibility of the deposition itself. But circling the wagons and then calling people who like to be informed about what they choose to spend their money on ne'er-do-wells or busybodys is just insulting..
    Leonard =

    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  5. #14270
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Leonard =

    That picture is so horrible and funny at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  6. #14271
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    JP just invented the correct and passed it off as an ancient secret.
    As long as its correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #14272
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar...
    Yes, but even then, it can be named Monica.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  8. #14273

    What it all means.

    I myself have read the deposition and followed all of the comments on this board.
    I do not know GM Sin personally, nor have I met him. What I do know is that I have nothing but the utmost respect and trust in my Master, as well as his Master. Regardless of what the comments about SD are (and there are many), I know that my daughter and I have only just started in it; of course this is the first formal instruction (besides our instruction in boxing, and my brief run in the amateur boxing circuit) we have had in any martial art, and both of us have noticed a big difference in our level of conditioning as well as our ability to defend ourselves when we spar together. The foundational techniques that we have been taught and guided in have proved phenomenal so far, and through it all our teacher (Master) has had the patience to correct many of our mistakes in technique and application. We will continue to train in SD, and if we can continue to improve we just might be able prove ourselves worthy of the level of instruction and dedication that our teacher provides us. My daughter and I can only hope to emulate our Master, given that we remain as dedicated to him as he is to teaching us.

  9. #14274

    Awesome

    Well said, keep up your training!

  10. #14275
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    Quote Originally Posted by nautavac View Post
    I myself have read the deposition and followed all of the comments on this board.
    I do not know GM Sin personally, nor have I met him. What I do know is that I have nothing but the utmost respect and trust in my Master, as well as his Master. Regardless of what the comments about SD are (and there are many), I know that my daughter and I have only just started in it; of course this is the first formal instruction (besides our instruction in boxing, and my brief run in the amateur boxing circuit) we have had in any martial art, and both of us have noticed a big difference in our level of conditioning as well as our ability to defend ourselves when we spar together. The foundational techniques that we have been taught and guided in have proved phenomenal so far, and through it all our teacher (Master) has had the patience to correct many of our mistakes in technique and application. We will continue to train in SD, and if we can continue to improve we just might be able prove ourselves worthy of the level of instruction and dedication that our teacher provides us. My daughter and I can only hope to emulate our Master, given that we remain as dedicated to him as he is to teaching us.
    You hope that you and your daughter will emulate someone who has devotion to a fraud? And you hope to learn a system that will sue you if you try to teach what you learned without their consent? If you have developed skill and endurance through training, that's nice, but what does it have to do with Sin? If you train you get better. It has nothing to do with a copywritten set of forms.
    Sith Legal Kung Fu is unstoppable.

  11. #14276

    so...

    the problem here is that Sin The created a system based on Shaolin Kung Fu and structured and simplified the basic training to achieve desired results and didnt tell everyone what part of it he created?? Did everyone really believe that this was all ancient material?

    Cmon?

    Really?


    If Sin The was/ is a master of Shaolin Kung fu, earning rank from Ie chang ming , then doesnt that mean that he should/ could be able to make and create like the masters of old?

    Now Sin The is a fraud and made up everything? I mean all the **** is made up anyway. What , just because you didnt know, or didnt ask or your teacher didnt tell you or even worse you assumed , now Sin The is a liar and a fraud?

    Since my first year I knew what was made by Sin the and what wasn't. If you ask and do a little research...

    I may no longer be in the system but I know a few people that are, not everything is as it appears to be. I will let you guys figure that out on your own.

    Also I believe its possible that the original Indonesian school may have had these masters with these teachings, but I also believe it is quite possible he didnt learn it all there so he was trying to recreate it here.....

    Maybe

  12. #14277

  13. #14278
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Are do-rags and sleevless lightning tees going to replace gis? I saw that they were hosting a kung tao seminar. I wonder if some schools are going to promote/lay claim to that heritage. I wonder how Sin The feels about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  14. #14279
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Are do-rags and sleevless lightning tees going to replace gis? I saw that they were hosting a kung tao seminar. I wonder if some schools are going to promote/lay claim to that heritage. I wonder how Sin The feels about that?
    Hilarious, right? Looked like it was really informative and a lot of fun. To be honest, here in Cali he always encourage us to have people from other arts come in and share what they knew. Like Shaolin of old . As a matter of fact he brought in some old jkd june fan kung fu. We used have someone come in from all over SFV for years coming to our school. It was the way I have always worked .
    Ben Mullins? Nice to meet you , Mark Wright.

  15. #14280
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    the problem here is that Sin The created a system based on Shaolin Kung Fu and structured and simplified the basic training to achieve desired results and didnt tell everyone what part of it he created?? Did everyone really believe that this was all ancient material?

    Cmon?

    Really?


    If Sin The was/ is a master of Shaolin Kung fu, earning rank from Ie chang ming , then doesnt that mean that he should/ could be able to make and create like the masters of old?

    Now Sin The is a fraud and made up everything? I mean all the **** is made up anyway. What , just because you didnt know, or didnt ask or your teacher didnt tell you or even worse you assumed , now Sin The is a liar and a fraud?

    Since my first year I knew what was made by Sin the and what wasn't. If you ask and do a little research...
    You mean, did everyone believe the advertising, and what the elder masters had been saying explicitly? Yes, it seems many people did, whether it was reasonable to believe them or not. When you put your trust in a teacher/authority figure, you want to assume they are not misleading you, so immediately being suspicious of all information they give you is not most people's first response. And who do you ask, when your teacher doesn't know anything, and the elder masters do nothing but tell legends about ancient monks? If you aren't privileged to know Sin The personally and live in the same town as him, how would a person find out anything? Why should anyone have to ask? Learning the origin and history of whatever you're practicing should be information explicitly given, to whatever degree that information is known. If a form is one invented by the founder of the system, that should be revealed at the time you are learning it, the information possibly to be on the quiz/test many systems have you take along with promotions. Maybe my expectations about this are unreasonable, having come from an Okinawan style where we had a book describing whatever was known about the origins of each kata. The kata that were invented by the style founder and his contemporaries were represented as such.
    It doesn't make the material worthless, it doesn't make it "fake" martial arts. It does make a bad impression when you either lie about or are ignorant about the material you are teaching. It is kind of a big deal for many people to hear that Sin The invented much of the material "from scratch"(in his words) which they were told was traditional shaolin martial arts. Maybe that isn't entirely true, maybe he just restructured traditional forms and/or put traditional techniques into new arrangements (that's what I think). But in that case, he lied under oath, and that doesn't look good either. One way or the other, lies have been told, by him and/or his senior students, if only lies of omission.
    I'm not saying Sin The is a terrible human being, I don't know him or have enough information. But I wouldn't trust anything he says anymore regarding the martial arts he has taught, much less anything any of his senior students say. If I were still a member of CSC or shaolin do at this point, I would have serious misgivings about continuing. At the very least, I would start questioning everything I had been told up to that point, and expect to get full discolusure on anything I was subsequently taught. And I would share any information I found with everyone around me, whether it came from the masters or not.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

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