View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. Judge,

    There are a small handful of people in SD who can correctly teach what they have learned. You had the benefit of training with one such person. Grooms is another..because, like Mullins, he looked deeper into the material than most.

    You twisted what I said a bit or I wasnt clear, but your last sentence was somewhat hard to understand so i am not sure how to answer it effectively.

    When I said he "went out and tried to discover the meaning behind the moves and how they need to be done to deliver the maximum effect." what I am saying is he looked deeper for that understanding and perspective.

  2. #14312
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfujunky View Post
    Judge,

    There are a small handful of people in SD who can correctly teach what they have learned. You had the benefit of training with one such person. Grooms is another..because, like Mullins, he looked deeper into the material than most.

    You twisted what I said a bit or I wasnt clear, but your last sentence was somewhat hard to understand so i am not sure how to answer it effectively.

    When I said he "went out and tried to discover the meaning behind the moves and how they need to be done to deliver the maximum effect." what I am saying is he looked deeper for that understanding and perspective.
    I'm not trying to twist around any words, but one of the very valid criticisms of SD is that it is not often taught properly. And by that I mean with very much depth. I have heard of several SD masters who went outside the art to add depth and understanding to their training. Take Pa Kua for example. Many 2nd degree blacks have learned Pa Kua, performed it on a test, and were passed on to the next rank, but not many of them have ever heard of the 64 rules of Pa Kua. If they are lucky, they were taught a handful. I know 2nd degrees and higher that didn't even know these rules existed. I don't know if they were ever taught in SD by GM The, Hiang The or the eldest of his students or if they were introduced because some enterprising students sought out other instruction.

    You are correct, I was very fortunate in my training. I believe that I received a deeper instruction than many. I was not taught the 64 rules. I found them on my own. I was taught many of the concepts, but they were not expressed the same way. I think the fundamentals should be taught to all students and concede this to be a very real and significant criticism of SD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  3. #14313

    Hooooraaaay!

    We have a pulse, This thread is still alive!

  4. #14314
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    I'm not trying to twist around any words, but one of the very valid criticisms of SD is that it is not often taught properly. And by that I mean with very much depth. I have heard of several SD masters who went outside the art to add depth and understanding to their training. Take Pa Kua for example. Many 2nd degree blacks have learned Pa Kua, performed it on a test, and were passed on to the next rank, but not many of them have ever heard of the 64 rules of Pa Kua. If they are lucky, they were taught a handful. I know 2nd degrees and higher that didn't even know these rules existed. I don't know if they were ever taught in SD by GM The, Hiang The or the eldest of his students or if they were introduced because some enterprising students sought out other instruction.

    You are correct, I was very fortunate in my training. I believe that I received a deeper instruction than many. I was not taught the 64 rules. I found them on my own. I was taught many of the concepts, but they were not expressed the same way. I think the fundamentals should be taught to all students and concede this to be a very real and significant criticism of SD.
    To illustrate the point and understand the difference in what people have learned around the system. In Denver they teach Pa Kua in about 8 class hours - sometimes less and then move on to spending about the same number of hours on Tai Chi or something else.

    In Atlanta the students have class available to them 5 or 6 days a week for 8 months on Pa Kua. They might get about 100 hours of instruction to deliver the movements. They will get a few hours of time going through the 64 Rules and a few hours on the 1-5 Level training and some time on applications. The students get an explanation of the 64 Rules and a written copy.

  5. Thank you RJ

    I know that in Atlanta they spend a lot of time on Tai Chi and Hsing I as well.

    Also on Pa Kua, they do intensive seminars for it to cover certain aspects in more detail.

  6. #14316
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    Question for the Atlanta people: Do you know if Master Grooms received a copy of the 64 rules from GM The (or another master who taught Master Grooms) or if he discovered it from an outside source and then started incorporating it into his instruction?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #14317
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    Pa Kua Chang and the 64 Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by RJ797 View Post
    To illustrate the point and understand the difference in what people have learned around the system. In Denver they teach Pa Kua in about 8 class hours - sometimes less and then move on to spending about the same number of hours on Tai Chi or something else.

    In Atlanta the students have class available to them 5 or 6 days a week for 8 months on Pa Kua. They might get about 100 hours of instruction to deliver the movements. They will get a few hours of time going through the 64 Rules and a few hours on the 1-5 Level training and some time on applications. The students get an explanation of the 64 Rules and a written copy.
    I can say that in the very early 80's when I first took Pa Kau (from GMT) in Lexington, I got written materials the first week (over the 8-10 week course), which I still have, which included the names for each move in each section, in Chinese and English; the entirety of the 64 Rules, by Chinese term and translated into English (which track and are very close to the same explanations as I've seen in books since then from other practitioners), which GMT went over individually in class; hand sketches of the 8 palm positions; and drawings of several foot work patters (which we also trained in class), to side step and avoid and counter. We also spent time with GMT calling out the movements (in Chinese) in order, and also randomly so as to rearrange the movements from the form. Many of you also know, GMT taught other versions and styles of Pa Kua over the years, and the Dragon style has a two man set with applications. Eric Smith also taught a Pa Kua class with applications and we used weights (jackets, ankles, wrists) while training the form; and that I understood from the class that he did gain and review with GMT (for being on the correct path, so to speak) beforehand.

    And I know many if not most of the more experienced practitioners did visit with or train with Pa Kua outside of SD, and did not shy from books written by other Pa Kua practioners. I have several Pa Kua books that I study and yes it does give insights into what the material is, that isn't gained just in class. I place doing that in the vein of, not just being given the gold, but finding out how to make your own, or at least find it yourself.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  8. #14318
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTD View Post
    Does any one know the starting date of CSC-Atlanta under Master Gary Grooms?
    Where did Master Gary Start his training in SD and who was his Original Teacher?
    What year did Master Gary get his 1st Degree Black Belt?
    OTD
    Why not ask him yourself? Directly. He might tell you. But then again, you'd have to tell him who you are & why you think you need this info.
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  9. #14319
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Question for the Atlanta people: Do you know if Master Grooms received a copy of the 64 rules from GM The (or another master who taught Master Grooms) or if he discovered it from an outside source and then started incorporating it into his instruction?
    When I first learned Pakua from master gary he gave use copies of the 64 rules typed by Gm the' and gave some verbal details about what they mean to the actual practice. It is my understanding that master gary learned from Gm the' and not a outside source.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

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  10. #14320
    Quote Originally Posted by OTD View Post
    Does any one know the starting date of CSC-Atlanta under Master Gary Grooms?
    Where did Master Gary Start his training in SD and who was his Original Teacher?
    What year did Master Gary get his 1st Degree Black Belt?
    OTD
    I think master gary started in 1982 with the soards in Denver and then after moving to atlanta in the mid 1980's started visiting some Kentucky schools for training which I suppose lead to him taking private lessons with Gm the'.

    I do not know when he got his black belt but it must have been in the mid to late 1980's.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  11. #14321
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    Do have experience with grooms? If so just curious how he stacks up with the other masters outside of sd.
    Yes, I have lots of experience with him. He is my primary tai chi chuan teacher.
    He has a very pragmatic view of martial arts and I think in many areas he exceeds what teachers from other systems offer. The biggest thing he taught me was how to learn and how to test my material.

    If you are looking for words like qua and dang and Shen fa to be used in instruction you will not get it. He speaks and teaches in american/English terms.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  12. #14322
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    The Soards' CSC handbook has the 64 rules in it. Every CSC student gets a copy of them. I don't know when they first got the rules, but it is reasonable to think Grooms might have gotten the rules from them. I'm surprised to hear so many people never knew them, we reviewed them repeatedly over the course of the three months alotted to baguazhang. (Three months is not enough, but it's more than they give to anything else)
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  13. #14323
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTD View Post
    1974 - Pa Kua seminars, Hand written notes, Hand Drawn- no rules - Sticky hand & Feet, 2-man exercises. However GMS did go over the rules and gave some examples.. if you could do 'shorthand' you would have gotten the info. When GMS announced he would do a Pa Kua seminar in '79, a few of the Black belts agreed to type out the original notes and leave space for the Pinyin names. GMS said' In that case let's add in the 64 rules". So we agreed to type the rules and he added the Pinyin Characters
    1979 - Pa Kua Seminars, Type Written notes w/rules - hand written Pinyin Characters - Added Fighting techniques and 1 - 5 Level training - Blindfold Sticky hands/feet.
    1982 - Spring Soards move to Denver
    1983 - Pa Kua Seminars Sports Center, Type written w/rules - hand written Pinyin Characters, Fighting Techniques, 1-5 Level Training Single/Double Sticky Hands/Feet, 2-Man Exercises

    I could be wrong, however, the Original notes have a distingushing feature that dates Them and the original typed do as well.

    OTD
    What was the 1-5 level training exactly?

  14. #14324
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    Baqua

    Hey All...still alive and still watching the madness from the trees. I have to agree with OTD (hello my friend!) I took the 79 seminar, which was really a special class once a week for 2 or 3 months (getting old)...all the notes, 64 rules, palms and training levels were given to us. Everthing was covered in class and being that Tai Chi 64 & Classical Pakua were the only internal forms taught at that time, all levels were learning them and it was easy to get extra instruction (especially push hands) long after the class. He taught it as a special class in the mid 90's the same way with all the handouts. There's no reason that any teacher wouldn't have the notes to share. Peace

  15. #14325
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    Shaolin Do Sighting on National TV

    Some guy named Joshua Grant was on American Ninja Warrior (season 2) Midwest prelims. He made it to the obstacle called the "Lamp Ramp" or something like that, but then fell into the water, probably due to his bad wrist.

    Anyways, they did a short little expose on him before his run. It showed 3 clips of him doing some forms---one of the Brown Belt cranes, Fei Hu Chu Tung, and something else that looked like maybe Tang Lang Quan.


    He looked like a bright kid, in great shape, and a pretty talented parkour runner on the side.

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