View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
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    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #14431
    Isn't it possible that the northern shaolin five animal form could have been passed down to others. If this Sifus wife knows it from her family, it is possible that others knew the original form before the lau bin line "southernized" the form with the CLF influence. It's even possible that there could be many diff versions of this form if the original is old. I look at other bak mei schools and see the forms and some are different in this way or that way but it is the same form and the concepts are there. So if a form is like 200 years old there could potentially be 100s of versions out there as the art travels thru different teachers and areas. All these influences make changes here and there like CLF did to the 5 animal form.

    Are there markers in Jakes form that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it comes from the book?


    Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Jake, I think his kungarate is pretty fukced up and he is clearly in the dark or a serious liar. He could just be a huge victim tho. Another notch on the SD bedpost. Fukced by Sin The.

    My guess is that he was a victim but instead of just admitting it and moving on, he is going balls deep on this in some fukced up denial/save face nerdquest bullsh1t. Ya think? Ya!

  2. #14432
    That is hardly proof. I find the standards of evidence in CMA to be highly suspect. Just coz you and your sifu haven't seen it anywhere doesn't mean it isn't anywhere else. The form was originally an obscure family form and it may still be which is why nobody can find it. But then who is actually looking? Who has gone all over the world and spoken to all sifu and asked specifically to find that form. If they had they would be an idiot coz it would be an exercise in futility. Too many people too much land to cover. A team of 10,000 people trained in research methods would find this a daunting task.


    I think the only thing you can say with RELATIVE certainty is that your lineage is the only popular lineage to show it to outsiders.


    Like I said before, if you can identify the markers and prove that the form came from the book, cool. I do not believe that this Jake kid found a rare form from "many masters in china" clearly the kid is a liar. I'm just sayin, it is possible that the form exists outside your lineage.

    Do you have any documentation to show us the form that was originally taught by the wife so we can compare it to what the form has become?

    I'm not picking on you HSK, I even like you. You seem like a good guy so please don't take offense to what I'm saying. I just think you need to be a lot more objective in the way you choose what to believe. I can think of a million and one scenarios where that form could exist elsewhere yet remain obscure and hidden.

  3. #14433
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    its up to you to believe it or not. I challenge you to find the exact same form ANYWHERE outside my lineage. I don't mean people who bought the book or DVD. I'm talking about a 100% authentic and legitimate system out there. Not these kungarate's. no karate background or tons of caucasians only either.

    i can sit back and confidently say you won't find it outside of my lineage. my challenge stands for anyone to do this.



    i'd only agree to that if you can find me a lineage in true northern shaolin that does this form. if you DO, i would even thank you for finding it. it would be hella nice to know more background on a form we've been passion down for almost 100 years in our family alone.



    no prob. i'm a big boy. not too ingorant either.

    like i mentioned above....when a legitimate northern shaolin system can show me the exact same form..... i stand on my statements that this 5 animal form is exclusive to our system. still, i look forward to the day i'm proven wrong.



    that would be a negative. for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF. however, i don't know. in the USA branch or my lineage, i'm part of the 3rd generation. so the history side of it isn't clear but isn't unclear as well. yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him. in this respect, he gets all respect.

    its the ones who wanted to make gung fu free and available to the american public that i would be leary of. Lau Bun, not so much.
    Well there you go. You say "for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF" so you may not even recognize the original form if you saw it.

    I'm sure I can't find another with legit lineage, but that isn't proof. You can't tell me what picture is on my wall in front of me. That does not mean there is no pic or that you are a fool. We are just so far removed you have no way of knowing. Now considering the sheer demographics of China and how many areas remain RURAL in a way we can't even fathom, it is more than fair to say that me, you and anyone else is very far removed from China as a whole. Nobody can study everywhere and talk to everyone. That form could have also ended up in other arts that are very closed systems. Or it could just look so different nobody realizes they came from the same place.

    Now if you can show documented markers in the book form and show those markers in Jakes form, boom, you got him. And I'm not defending Jake, I'm sure he did learn it from Sin The who did learn it from the book. But that doesn't mean it isn't out there somewhere.

    Not everyone has a camera and access to you tube, some have no desire to do any such thing. So how could anyone find proof of something like this without having just stumbled on it? Just coz you can't find it on you tube doesn't mean it isn't there.

    Like the famous quote, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns. You have to take into consideration that statistically there is a chance that there are many unknown unknowns here. You followin' me?

  4. #14434
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him.
    So, the argument thus far is: SKT and/or Jake Mace's claims about the origin of the form they teach should not be believed because they propagate fake kung fu for money, and you know for a fact they stole the form in question from your lineage because it matches the fake kung fu your teacher put in a book he sold for money.

    Is that about right?

  5. #14435
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    as right as about how much you take dik in ur as$
    now THAT sounds about right.....
    Is bigotry one of the "markers" you were referring to? Because I have yet to hear SKT, Jake Mace, or any of their students speak as you just have.

    If that's the kind of behavior that can be expected from students of your "highly legit" lineage, I'm quite happy to be part of an illegitimate one.

  6. #14436
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    ...

    DO A SEARCH ON THE CHINESE CHARACTERS. YOU'LL SEE JUST HOW MANY SCHOOLS TEACH NORTHERN SHAOLIN FIVE ANIMALS.
    Did a search on these characters and only came up with this thread. Can you link to the results you found?

  7. #14437
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    its up to you to believe it or not. I challenge you to find the exact same form ANYWHERE outside my lineage. I don't mean people who bought the book or DVD. I'm talking about a 100% authentic and legitimate system out there. Not these kungarate's. no karate background or tons of caucasians only either.

    i can sit back and confidently say you won't find it outside of my lineage. my challenge stands for anyone to do this.



    i'd only agree to that if you can find me a lineage in true northern shaolin that does this form. if you DO, i would even thank you for finding it. it would be hella nice to know more background on a form we've been passion down for almost 100 years in our family alone.



    no prob. i'm a big boy. not too ingorant either.

    like i mentioned above....when a legitimate northern shaolin system can show me the exact same form..... i stand on my statements that this 5 animal form is exclusive to our system. still, i look forward to the day i'm proven wrong.



    that would be a negative. for all i know it could have been completely changed to include CLF. however, i don't know. in the USA branch or my lineage, i'm part of the 3rd generation. so the history side of it isn't clear but isn't unclear as well. yet, lau bun was the real deal and didn't teach gung fu to make money like people do today. he would have no reason to lie about the history of this form and the fact this his teachers wife taught it to him. in this respect, he gets all respect.

    its the ones who wanted to make gung fu free and available to the american public that i would be leary of. Lau Bun, not so much.
    You are correct in your reasoning. They will come up with Zero documentation.

  8. #14438
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    Did Lau Bun's teacher's wife ever say where she learned it from?

  9. #14439
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    I'm loving the discussion on the Five Animal Form. I know SD's version of this form and have compared it to DFW's book and video. I've had these very conversations with Sean about whether it was stolen from a book or it was possible that the form was somehow passed down to others that taught LB's wife's family. Frankly, at this point I don't know and don't really care anymore. I'll say this, the version the Jake does is very different than how I was taught. In fact most of his stuff is radically different in form, content and expression than I was taught. That is one of the biggest problems with SD; everyone does it their own way and SKT didn't seem to care to correct the divergent groups. Jake has excellent flexibility, balance and strength, but his stuff just looks off to me.

    So I guess to sum up my comments, what I learned may be fake, but my fake version looks closer to DFW's fake version than Jake's fake version.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  10. #14440
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    it was passed down within her family. according to doc fai wong she came from a northern shaolin family, meaning her parents were also northern stylists.
    That's specific.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  11. #14441
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    DFW's version isn't fake. WTF are you talking about? the version jake has isn't FAKE.....its STOLEN. jake is a self centered wierdo to me.
    Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you said DFW did the sucsession of moves correctly, but the intent was wrong. I also thougth you said that the version that DFW put out on book and video weren't 100% correct and the differences are how you can tell whether someone really knew the form or had copied it from the book/video. I've I've misquoted you, then let me revise my prior comment: The version I know may have been stolen, but the way I did the stolen version is closer to DFW's than Jake's version of the stolen version. Is that better?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  12. #14442
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    Quote Originally Posted by OTD View Post
    What was the "Original" published date
    of the first ptinting of DFW book?
    English & Chinese versions.

    OTD
    Either 1989 or 1990. I can't remember. But I know it was one of those dates. I'll check when I get home.

  13. #14443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    I'm loving the discussion on the Five Animal Form. I know SD's version of this form and have compared it to DFW's book and video. I've had these very conversations with Sean about whether it was stolen from a book or it was possible that the form was somehow passed down to others that taught LB's wife's family. Frankly, at this point I don't know and don't really care anymore. I'll say this, the version the Jake does is very different than how I was taught. In fact most of his stuff is radically different in form, content and expression than I was taught. That is one of the biggest problems with SD; everyone does it their own way and SKT didn't seem to care to correct the divergent groups. Jake has excellent flexibility, balance and strength, but his stuff just looks off to me.

    So I guess to sum up my comments, what I learned may be fake, but my fake version looks closer to DFW's fake version than Jake's fake version.
    I agree. Jake is a great athlete. Strong and flexible. But the way he performs forms is much different than how I was taught. But that goes for all the people I've seen out west.

  14. #14444
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    Let me say this too: I'm not commenting or attempting to comment on Doc Fai Wong's version of the form. I've seen different CLF versions of 5 animal form and I have no idea which is a more accurate version of what what taught through LB or his wife. I know the version that is taught in SD (at least how I learned it) is very similar to DFW's version. There are differences in some of the stances, kicks, angles and sequence of movements, but they are minimal. It is possible that the form is stolen. It is possible that SKT learned it independantly (although I fully understand why people would rightly question that claim). All I know is that it was a very difficult form to learn and perform and it was one of my favorite SD forms that I knew. If it was stolen then I learned a very nice stolen form.

    As far as the publication date, I haven't been able to figure that out. I own the video, but I only borrowed the book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  15. #14445
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    Pompus little ass, isn't he?

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