Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Syn7]

i pointed out exactly where in the sets he's doing it wrong. thats all i'm willing to give up in regards this set.

what i'm saying to you is this....if i take a screen grab of jake doing it wrong and i post a pic of how it should be done....jake and all of his shaollin do lineage will try to change this to the way it should be done. since they learned it from a book....all i have to say is tough tatties. i don't want anyone from their lineage to know they are doing it wrong.

You aren't hearin me, bro. I don't want to be shown anything the public isn't allowed to see. The book has been published. I don't want to know what the real form is like, I'm only concerned with what has been published by both parties involved. You aren't doing anything that jake couldn't do on his own because it is all public material.

Markers are small changes in order to put a signature on a form and also used to hide secrets. Agreed? Ok what I want is a marker from the book and then show me where jake is doing the marked movement. I will have to take your word for it that it is indeed a marker because you don't wanna show secrets and that's fine.

So I am not asking you to show me differences, I'm asking for similarities. You understand?

So when you see a marker in Jakes form you know that even if it was a very common form, you can show that the form was copied from the book because only those who got it from the book would have those markers.

Unless your argument goes like this: "nobody knows the form therefor you got it from us" and that is your proof that is thin. But if you can identify copied markers you can prove it is from that book. Otherwise you can't for sure pin point where he learned it. Feelin me?

[Syn7]

Thanx. I'll check that out. Any particular markers you feel like pointing out? I'm totally interested in this kinda sh1t.


BTW, It isn't that I don't believe you or respect your opinion, I'm just scrutinizing the evidence.


Can you patent a form? Is there legal framework in place to protect this sort of intellectual property? And if so, how is that realized when dealing with the old styles that are full of arguments and contradiction among practitioners that can show lineage? First come first serve? whoever can show earliest ownership wins? Like with documents and all that?

I'm talking about the actual forms, not the names of the forms. Can I take anyones form, change the name and sell it and face no legal repercussions?

[Syn7]

Word to the wise:
Be careful. If this is his business and you are not right or maybe even if you are, you could face suit. Defamation for starters. Just be careful and make sure that you are fully willing to commit to anything like this before you put it out there for everyone. It sounds dumb, but I know people who have hurt themselves this way. Over dumb sh1t. Considering people commit murder over martial lineage, a civil suit doesn't seem that far fetched. Especially when somebody like Jake comes along and has so much ego wrapped up in his whole business.

I know I asked for it, I'm just sayin...

[Shaolin Wookie]

So you miss me with you fat jokes.

We might not be able to miss.

[OldandUsed]

Reading the exchanges here in the forum recently regarding the 5 animal form is entertaining. I see a few martial artists asking intelligent questions of an individual that proclaims superior knowledge and credit as a martial artist, even to the point of using the term warrior in their screen name. What this petulant individual does/says is nothing remotely resembling the actions of a martial artist or a warrior. The petty insults, disparaging remarks and outright chalenges are in very poor taste and are actions of a bratty child instead of a warrior of honor. Oh yeah, I was a SD-er, but I am also a Judoka and a practicioner of Byakuren. I have also served putting boot to a$$ for God and country and have proven myself in that area as a warrior. So, to you, hsk, **** off. BTW, if a piece is published, put out to the public, isn't it understood that there will be those that will accept that gift and incorporate it into their own material? In other words, if the guy did not want folks to pick up the material, he should not have published it and put it out in order to make money off of it in the first place.

Okay, now I will sit back and listen to troll boy hsk whine some more.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Your youtube video comparing Jake Mace and your Grandmaster is interesting. I always like to find out where material is coming from, and how it was learned.

There are some problems, of course, with your argument.

#1 In a free market, we don't care if your Grandmaster Salvatero or whatever pulled the form out of his ass and called it a grandchild. What kind of "permission" does one need to pretend to be a tiger/crane? The form is hardly "strictly combat" and contains a lot of showy movements. Are you saying that your Grandmaster owns something that you learn--something that you put into your head? ?Your grandmaster owns your mind and its contents? If I memorize a poem by John Milton, does John Milton (who is dead 400 years) own the info in my head. If so, how? I do lots of one-legged squats, but I don't know the form. So must I ask permission of Grandmaster Salvatero if I do one-legged squats and pretend I'm a crane? Just silly.

This is why intellectual property is such a stupid idea. According to your rationale, I ought to be paying royalties (or homage) to the first half-man half-ape somewhere in the line of time who built a lean-to in some remote forest simply for the fact that I live under a roof today. Why not, according to your logic?

#2 Any competent martial artist could, in theory, learn a form from a book or a video. I don't consider it a good idea, simply for the fact that "forms" aren't that important when judged beside actual martial skills. But if I did know a tiger-crane form years ago, but forgot it when I....oh, I don't know...moved to Kentucky from Bandung, then would it be such a crime to fill in the blanks using a book or a video?

If this doesn't sound so outlandish, then the real question once again boils down to the problem of intellectual property and its legitimacy.

[OldandUsed]

Excellent, Wook.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've met some very talented "show" martial artists who regularly compete in martial arts circuits. Surprise surprise, many have learned forms from videos. Guess what? You can't tell the difference between their wushu and the wushu of the guy on the video. Sometimes the forms are traditional forms, put out by very "traditional" teachers. Still can't tell the difference between the "real thing" and the "fake thing" until you fight.

Shaolin makes up **** every day, it seems. Frog style? Scorpion style? The **** is whack, but it sells. Furthermore, outside of historical reasons, there is no reason that anyone should care whether Shaolin Temple actually "created" the forms they teach. Historically, it seems that Shaolin Temple has been very dishonest. Nearly every legend tells of a traveler or student who created a personal style during a stay in Henan or Fukien. "Shaolin" didn't create anything. It's not like there was a "Shaolin" committee in place, determining the "Shaolinness" of movements by democratic vote. Plus, if Shaolin was so good, then why did people keep making up new **** that Shaolin would later try to "patent" as their own? So clearly Shaolin isn't legit, according to your logic, since it routinely stole its best students' intellectual property. LOL.

Now, I can tell the difference between JM and the dude in your video, I'll grant you that. But it looks like the difference....dah...dah...dah....

between a guy (your dude) who practiced the form more than another guy and happens to be performing a deadly demo, and a guy teaching the form via video.


LOL.

[Shaolin Wookie]

haha i stand on my claims and challenge any and all to find another teacher outside of my lineage that authentically learned it from a different but authentic alternative souce and i'll do a public apology video. but it won't happen because we know whats ours. mr funny man.

Define "authentic." For example: I think boobs are real, as long as I can touch them. But many other people define the "realness" of boobs according to some other subjective standard.

I'm pretty sure that those other people, assuming heterosexuality here as an experimental constant, would agree with me if given the opportunity.

Serious point, BTW. Just an absurd example--reductio ad absurdum.



Here's a good question: If your lineage released a book detailing the movements of this particular form, why did it do so if it didn't believe that others could learn the form by book? Furthermore, if you were having trouble with a particular section of your form, and then decided to turn to your lineage's book for guidance, could it not be said that you (1) did not know the form prior to turning to the book for elucidation, and (2) actually learned the form from the book?

[OldandUsed]

Bravo! Excellent points!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Part of the problem involved here is the almighty trade union/govt. regulation mentality of the Chinese vs. the free market mentality of America. Chinese martial arts has a very disgusting history of using the government as a bargaining chip in business affairs (think of the Shaolin/Emperor connection, whereby these "poor" monks lived off of the largesse of public expropriation by despots, thereby justifying governmental theft and the suppresison of liberty). Crossing the Pacific didn't change things. Even GM Sin, for instance, tried to claim a patent for his forms in court in order to fight a former student who was teaching without GM Sin's authorization. GM Sin lost (if I recall correctly)---and rightly so. How could he claim property in another person's memories? He could only claim property in the curriculum, the courts claimed (and I think this, too, is an injustice). GM Sin taught some of his forms out across public access television in Kentucky. Seems to me that he believed that others could learn mere forms from video--just like HSK's teacher--but was somehow ****ed off that others felt they could teach without a certificate (a license for business). What makes GM Sin or HSK Warrior's teachers so great that they--and only they--should have the right to say what should be taught? If this very narrowminded menatlity were the norm, (well, it is the norm in public schoolhouses), then NOBODY would ever learn anything new, and we'd all be slaves to our ancestors. (again, a very Chinese notion).

"Learning" is never a top-to-bottom enterprise. Yes, you often need a teacher if you wish to learn, but not always, or else nobody would learn anything new. Experience and Theory go hand-in-hand, but you may learn more from one than the other at times. But "you" are always the central figure in the learning process. If you don't wish to learn, then you won't. And if your teacher tells you that you owe him for life just for what he has taught you, then you may politely decline payment and tell him that he is wrong. Maybe he'll learn something new--something valuable.

And if someone claims that his teacher was the **** when it came to tiger-crane, and that his lineage is the source of that info, then you may mark down the historical relevance of that fact. But nobody owes anybody anything in this affair.

And we might--in theory....note that I'm strictly speaking in theory here--tell a sassy sourpuss who has a lineage on his back and an axe to grind, to simply **** off, and do so politely--in his own room and off of the KFM forum.

[kwaichang]

I am glad everyone is talkin on this forum , this is a way of communicating with "friends" Since no one likes to call LOL , anyway I just thought I would let others know not to cry about it. As far as the form is concerned. Dont worry about it too much it is evident that the Jake dude has TKD background and is bouncing at the bottom of his 1 leg squat, he will inevitably end up injuring himself. The great thing about having a "real" teacher instead of a Book is one learns the proper mechanics of the movements. But I have to agree with SW and OaUsed no one "owns" a form. Once it is put out there it is theres to screw up or make better. So give Jake time and do not contend with those who would contend with you. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

BTW...Shaolin Wookie is doing one-legged squats right now and pretending to be a crane.


**** a lineage!

[kwaichang]

Stop It SW I will sue u stole that from Meeeeeeeeeeee! KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Something about kicking ass that always brings up the legal rights of the dead (or retired).

Everyone wants to kick ass through a ouiji board.