Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

I've been told that SD first taught this form out in the 1970s but who knows if that is true or not. IF Sin The learned the form from a book at then passed it off as a form he learned from his teacher, then it isn't exactly stealing; it's lying.

But assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct, and despite the fact that DFW published both a video and a book of the form (markers, changes and all) and that practing that form is somehow steal stealing, then the proper accuasation for people like me (who learned it from my teacher who learned it from Sin The) is receiving stolen goods. Not nearly the same mens rea.

[Judge Pen]

Shameful to say the least.

But i still want to know what fakkin monkey on the face of this planet has a beak.!!!!!

I agree that a lie is shameful and I don't condone any lies that have been told in the name of Sin The or SD. But frankly, many people who honestly and dillgently trained take their teacher at their word.

HSK, would you have a problem if Jake would have said, I learned it from DFW's book? Also, I want you to assume that the way that I learned and performed DFW's form was as accurate and faithful to the book/video. I understand that there are markers in the form and the sequence is off, but aside from the intentional changes, what would be the problem. If my intent, timing, flow, stances, strikes, rooting, balance and power are all accurate translations then haven't I accomplished the intent behind the form even if it's DFW's modified propriatary version? (I think I know what you will say, but I think its a constructive conversation worth having)

[Judge Pen]

No. if he said from the get go to every student he passed it on to that he learned it from doc fai wong's book i'd have zero problems.



regardless of what doc fai wong put into the book, you learned a someone who learned it from the book. you still have the form. but you have learned some karate style version of what was in the book. since i come from the very family the form belongs to i know what to look for. but being lied to by the teacher doesn't say much about his character.



if you happened to learn it how jake does it, then i do have a huge problem with it. because he isn't representing our form in its proper light. it isn't for him to do what he wishes with it. give the proper source its due respect and we will see where it goes from there.

DFW put out the step-by-step video. If one could follow that video properly then aside from the markers, isn't it an accurate representation of the form? Or did DFW show improper mechanics in the video to keep the good stuff out of other's hands? I've spent quite a bit of time looking at the youtube versions of this form. You have your sifu and you have DFW. You have Jake. I have my own version and my teacher's version. I can tell it's the same form, but I see where we all do it slightly differently because of our skill, age or mechanics. The most import element to look for, imo, is the intent and flow of the form. The stances and balance in transition. Power can be deceptive (especially in looking at a form on video) but I think it's worse to see someone trying too hard to be powerful instead of being smooth and fluid and in control of your movement.

I'd love to see you put a clip of this form up for comparison. Not necessarily the first sequence as the balance and strenght is very difficult (especially if you've had a past back injury) but just a few sequences like Dino does to show the flow of the form based on your understanding.

[Judge Pen]

see, the Sifu Joe Bender does our form as well. and the best thing about it, is he gives my lineage is due credit as its source. he doesn't try to say he learned it from some obscure master in china that he doesn't know how to contact anymore.

He does, but his strength and balance aren't as good as Jake's. And you were very critical of his represnetation as well.

[Judge Pen]

I can't presently locate a video of me doing the form, but I do have some stills of me doing the form back in 2006 at an open-style tournament. You won't be able to tell much from them, but here they are anyway.

[Judge Pen]

i don't have the problem with doc fai wong nor have i ever complained about him and our 5 Animal form. where did your and your teachers version come from? it was either the book or the DVD. CLAIM IT. SPEAK THE TRUTH. i will tell you and your teacher together face to face that the form you are practicing is OUR form. you will never in your life or his life come up with an alternative source for this form outside of my lineage.



my back injury has nothing to do with jake or anyone in Shaolin Do practicing a form someone found in doc fai wong's book.

at 2:19 of this VIDEO you can see me doing a section of our 5 Animal form.

I don't know for certain where our form came from. I learned it in 2005 from my teacher. He learned it from Sin The. I don't know where Sin The learned it. If I did, either from the book/DVD or elsewhere, I would claim it. Until my teacher or Sin The tells me that Sin The learned it from a book, then I am not speaking from personal knowledge and all I can say is where I learned it. I will not argue with you that it is your form. I never said differently. Nor will I say that old masters in China are doing the same form. Haven't seen anyone do it but your lineage, Bender, and SD.

I think the first sequence of the form is very taxing to get right. That's all I was saying about your back--that is a difficult part of the form to do correctly and not struggle with the balance and strength.

[Judge Pen]

i don't have the problem with doc fai wong nor have i ever complained about him and our 5 Animal form. where did your and your teachers version come from? it was either the book or the DVD. CLAIM IT. SPEAK THE TRUTH. i will tell you and your teacher together face to face that the form you are practicing is OUR form. you will never in your life or his life come up with an alternative source for this form outside of my lineage.



my back injury has nothing to do with jake or anyone in Shaolin Do practicing a form someone found in doc fai wong's book.

at 2:19 of this VIDEO you can see me doing a section of our 5 Animal form.

the last picture you put up is straight up KARATE. if you don't think you're doing the Fu Jow correctly, just ask my sifu yourself. matter of fact, you can speak with my sifu about any further questions in regards to the form that belongs to our lineage.

Thanks for the criticism. What is incorrect about my technique (from a CMA perspective)? Is the the depth of my stance? The angle of the technique? The position of my fingers? What are the markers of "karate" in that technique? By the way, what branch of karate are you referring to? Gojo-ryu, shotokan, shorin-ryu? Another branch?

[Judge Pen]

I know where YOUR Shaolin 5 Animal form comes from even if you don't. if you, jake mace, or the ENTIRE Shaolin DO schools think i'm lying, then provide me with the name, location of someone outside of my lineage that learned it from some other authentic shaolin 5 animal source. you can't. its not that you won't, YOU CAN'T. and there is an EXCELLENT REASON for that. IT BELONGS TO THE LAU BUN LINEAGE.

Hands down.

I don't think you're lying. I have not said you were lying. All I said was "I don't know" which is a pretty honest thing to say. If you are convinced of your convictions, then good. I'm not trying to argue the lineage with you. I have never doubted that the form belongs to the Lau Bun lineage.

[Judge Pen]

i'm not qualified to teach you what you're doing wrong. go ask my sifu.

Ok, but he isn't here on the forum answering questions. Since you told me what I was doing was wrong from a CMA perspective then I assumed that you would be "qualified" to tell me how I was wrong. Since you told me what I was doing was "karate" I assumed that you could tell me how it was karate. If you aren't qualified, then why make the statement in the first place?

[Judge Pen]

well, since you don't know, then you might want to listen. the form you have been taught by someone at Shaolin Do taught you a form from the American Hung Sing Kwoon as founded by Professor Lau Bun in 1939. The form was taught to Lau Bun by his sifu's wife as repayment forall the great care he provided for her and her husband (his teacher).

No one out of my lineage knows this form as it is exclusive to us. You won't find another sifu from any part of the world not related to the lau bun lineage in any way shape or form practicing this set legitimately. the fact that shaolin do has been practicing this exact form and lying to the students about its source and origin is SHAMELESS and DECEITFUL.

You will never find another authentic source for the Lau Bun lineage Shaolin 5 Animal form outside of the American Hung Sing Kwoon.

I have been listening. You don't have to convince me of your lineage or the legitimacy of this form. Really we're just going in circles on this point.

[Judge Pen]

sorry, I just don't freely give stuff away. i know most of you people on this forum seem to think its ok to just give hard earned stuff away, but its not how i was taught to do things. You can contact my sifu for any further knowledge on this form if you wish.

you're asking me to tell you what you're doing wrong. so i tell you, then you fix it to do it the right way? HELLLLLLLLLL NO!

Really? I'm not trying to fix any mechanics. I just wanted to know why you thought it was wrong from a CMA perspective. I don't attend any martial arts class or teach. I do a few forms and chi kung on my own (of which this form is not one of them). I'm trying to have an adult conversation about body mechanics and technique and you make broad-stroked statements and then get defensive when someone politely asks you to elaborate on how you got to that opinion. Heck you could have said that the angle of my back foot doesn't allow my hips to open up and that is a classic hallmark of karate and that would give me some perspective on your opinion but still not give away the proper angle or mechanics. Do you see where I'm coming from?

[Judge Pen]

So, knowing that you have been lied to, the only proper thing to do is contact my sifu and pay him to make the corrections then actually tell people you learned it then had it corrected by the head master of the branch of kungfu that owns that form. thats the solution i can think of for you or anyone unfortunate enough to have learned our form that way.

Sin The may have lied to my teacher, but my teacher did not lie to me. He told me he learned the form from Sin The. At the time I was fine with that explanation. As I don't train in SD formally anymore, I question the origins of a lot of what I've been taught, but I don't have any real interest other than an intellectual one at this point.

If I wanted to really delve into this form then I might go seek out someone in your lineage. I could compare what I have been doing (most accurately: used to do) to your lineage and understand the differences. But wasting a little time on a Wednesday afternoon on KFO and talking nuance and technique is about as far as my interest goes at this point.

[Judge Pen]

My apologies bro. but I don't want to tell you or anyone outside of my lineage anything about anything other than the shaolin 5 animal form is our form and that Jake Mace had mangled it and denies its source. all i want is for people to know the truth. nothing else.

and since you posted the pics, i will say your hand positions are wrong. if that is the beginning of the form and you are using tiger claws you are doing it wrong. the position of your hands are wrong. jakes demo is WRONG.

what is the correct way? I DON'T KNOW! am i lying about knowing....maybe. But i'm not going to tell you how to do it right.

Don't lie. If you're going to get upset at others lying than speak the truth yourself. There's no reason for you to lie. You don't have to tell me anything. But don't get offended if you tell someone they are doing it wrong when they ask how are they doing it wrong.

The last picture is not in the begining of the form. It's in the middle of the form. I don't have my notes in front of me but I believe my teacher called that posture "Tiger exits the cave" of somethign similar. It's been 3 years since I've done the form so my memory on all the posture names is a little shakey.

[Judge Pen]

Lie? what am i lying about? you and the rest of anyone in Shaolin DO does our Five Animal form with HORRIBLE karate flavor and hand postures. anyone in kung fu that knows of karate can point that out.

the only thing that offends me is the outright lying to the masses for financial gain. Your Sin The has no honor in my eyes.



keep on practicing what your teacher taught you. i will keep on telling the rest of the world how Shaolin Do got their hands on OUR FORM.
and that last pic of you doing the TIGER CLAWS is a PURE KARATE WAY OF DOING THE TIGER CLAW. sorry.

You said:

what is the correct way? I DON'T KNOW! am i lying about knowing....maybe. But i'm not going to tell you how to do it right.

I said you don't have to lie. Either you know and don't want to tell me (which is your choice but you can understand why people would question your statements if you aren't willing to put them in perspective) or you don't know (which I don't believe by the way).

So, without giving away any HS CLF secrets, what about the last picture makes it a "karate" tiger claw? Is it the depth of my stance? The angle of my stance? The position of my fingers in relation to the palm? Something else? Also: What branch of Karate? Gojo-ryu? Shotokan? Shorin-ryu?

[Judge Pen]

ok i lied. i know this form.



Long Inhale.......Exhale........ the karate type of tiger claw is too tight, too focused on a strong tight shape. This is NOT the type of tiger used by my lineage. what you are doing is more akin to KARATE than Kung Fu. what branch of karate is on no importance as most all of karate use the same type of tiger claw which is different to that of the Hung Sing Choy lee Fut system

What you are doing is more akin to THIS. This is NOT a Kung Fu tiger Claw.



your tiger claw right next to your temple is KARATE and not kung fu. well more specifically Hung Sing style.

Thank-you. Now we are getting to a constructive conversation. Although my exact hand/finger position is slightly different than you photo (namely the position of my thumb is back furhter than the photo), you are correct that my claw is rigid. I was first taught an SD tiger-claw 22 years ago and I was taught that the focus was the ball of the fingers and the heel of the hand for the initial strike with the raking/tearing of the fingers to occur in conjunction with the concussive force of the strike. So there is certainly a grabbing/raking/tearing component to the tiger-claw as I was taught but it was also a strike with the ball and heel of the hand. If that is different than your lineage of CLF then I defer to your knowledge.

Now the reasons for this go beyond where SD learned the 5 animal form and gets back to a discussion of the essence of SD's origins. CMA/kung tao/JMA or some indonesian blend of whatever.