Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Syn7]

So this woman who took no students that taught this form to your lineage holder, where did she learn the form? Did she create it? If not, how do you know that the person who taught it to her didn't also teach it to someone else? How do you know that she didn't teach it with "markers" in it so that, when others from her lineage saw the form performed, they would know that it was the version that she gave out? Maybe she was her age's equivalent of DFW?

I asked him that like 10 pages ago.

[Syn7]

Old Noob makes some pretty good points here. The fact remains that DFW is using a marked-up version of the form to sell to the public (while not disclosing the fact it's an altered version) which is exactly what Jake's been accused of. This is separate from the issue of referencing/crediting the source.

His last point is alluding to all the criticism SD gets from wearing gi's and belts vs. sammies and sashes.

Why do you assume the changes DFW made were fundamental and/or made the form any better or worse than the original he learned? Huge assumption man. Jake doesn't suck because he learned a crap form, he sucks because he learned a good form from a crap teacher who learned it from a book and never fully understood what was in the book in the first place because he had NO foundation whatsoever. He translated a TCMA form with modern american karate eyes. I can't think of a worse CMA teacher. At least somebody who commits fraud but really knows nothing is building from scratch rather than passing one thing off as another.

[kwaichang]

You know what ever the Form this Jake dude is a joke from what I saw , who thinks he is any good any way no matter what form he does, Hell even his 1st stance in that 5 animal form sux. KC

[Drake]

SIMPLE. if someone wants to learn from a BOOK over learning from a living teacher then SO WHAT. you learn what DFW gave you. simple as that.

if anyone learns from a book, you're gonna end up looking just like jake did. like you don't know what you're doing.

I don't feel sorry for the people who learned from the book. in fact, jake or even SIN THE should be calling DOC FAI WONG "SIFU". so, catch 22, jake stole a form and it bit him in the ass because he ignored and lies about its true source.

T.F.B.

I really don't want to share a Sifu with a bunch of thieves.

[Drake]

Why do you assume the changes DFW made were fundamental and/or made the form any better or worse than the original he learned? Huge assumption man. Jake doesn't suck because he learned a crap form, he sucks because he learned a good form from a crap teacher who learned it from a book and never fully understood what was in the book in the first place because he had NO foundation whatsoever. He translated a TCMA form with modern american karate eyes. I can't think of a worse CMA teacher. At least somebody who commits fraud but really knows nothing is building from scratch rather than passing one thing off as another.

You really can't learn that form from a book. Especially not the one GM DFW published. It's nice for reference, but it doesn't work as a singular teaching tool.

[Syn7]

i would prefer to cut the conversation about its history now and would LOVE LOVE LOVE to pick it back up when another form 75% or more similar to the one i practice from my lineage makes its way to the surface. and please, exclude the one jake the snake is doing. thats our form from the book.

Hey, with you tube and cell phone cameras, if it is out there and has the same name, shouldn't take long for it to surface. In your lifetime forsure. Who knows tho. It could still be a very rural form known by a small amount of people that grow their own food and don't give a fukc about youtube and outside opinion on their lineage. Some things never surface, doesn't mean they arent there tho.

[Syn7]

You really can't learn that form from a book. Especially not the one GM DFW published. It's nice for reference, but it doesn't work as a singular teaching tool.

Yeah, I have books with forms. I have never tried to learn a form from a book. They are just curiosities and reference for me.

Is DFW your sifu or sigung? or neither?

[Syn7]

it would be great for martial arts weapons too ...

Imagine sparring with swords if there was no fear of perma damage. It would get pretty ugly up in that motherfukcer, for sure.

I can't imagine decapitation being fixable anytime soon. I have high hopes for re growth of non essential limbs. Genetics, stem cells, 3d printing, cybernetics etc etc aren't that far off. But the head thing is gonna be a major hump, lol. Major organs being the second hardest. If you get stabbed in the heart, even if we can grow you a new heart, that doesn't address what happens to everything else when blood stops flowing or something allows necrosis to set in. Unless the injury occurs in an operating room ready for anything, it's gonna be tough. Think of the brain damage from even a simple minor stroke.

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL...wtf are you guys talking about? Better yet, what are you smoking?

[yeti]

God d@mn this fukcing forum.

I just signed in, wrote a post, somehow was signed out, can't retrieve the old post, and can't be arsed to re-type the shiit.

It doesn't make me feel better that I can't even type swear words properly. Fukc.

[Syn7]

LOL...wtf are you guys talking about? Better yet, what are you smoking?

I'm from Vancouver. WTF you think I'm smokin'???


I just want to train weapons the way I train hands. Unfortunately I cannot. Nothing even comes close. Best I can do is suit up and swing some wood or a dull ass sword and even then, you can't practice all you would need for the real thing. Not that I intend on getting into a sword fight, but then I don't intend on getting into a fist fight or a gun fight and I'm proficient with those.

We were talking about 3d printers making replacement parts for people. It's already a reality. Not arms and legs, but organs. So far. 20 years ago our best bet was growing them, now we can print a PERFECT kidney in 3 hours. Now that is some sh1t!!!

[One student]

The more I read about the traditional CMA culture, the more I think its a farce to tie traditional notions of loyalty, honor, etc. to it. People talk about respecting teachers and stealing material and propogating false markers. . .

But, the markers exist because the teacher, the person profiting from the dissemination of the material, is lying to the purchaser. The boards are full of stories about how their teachers and masters would take on students for profit and teach them watered down techniques; saving their "real" kung fu for their best students or students who shared a race with them or whatever. The five animals form is a good example but its not even close to being the only one. DFW is in HSK's system. He decides to make a buck in martial arts by making a book and a video. How successful will his video and book be if he advertises it saying, "hey guys, this is a watered down, marked up, crappy version of this form but, hey, buy my book/video anyway?" I don't own the book or the video and haven't even seen them but I am absolutely willing to bet that the book and video market the form as a complete and correct form. DFW had to know, as his sifu had to know as well, that people would purchase that book and would share what they learned therein with others; that's human nature. So, Frank, I hate to say it, but DFW is as responsible as anyone else that there are F'd up versions of your form out there. Even if Jake had known that credit should have been given to DFW (and I still am willing to be that he's just recounting whatever BS story he heard from GMT and EMS) and gave credit to DFW, wouldn't he be doing crappy kung fu and crediting your system, thereby denigrating your system by representing it with the inferior product?

The whole thing is just BS. CMA practitioners routinely lied to their students about the sources/authenticity of their material; not just The. The whole honor and good behaviour in society garbage is a philosophical hook to sell the MA as a broader way of life.

I'm ranting a little, but really, we're mostly adults here. We should stop playing like out lineages are the only lineages that are pure. There are no pure CMA lineages.

You are correct that the honor concept is not maybe as embedded in CMA as it is in Japanese/Okinawan. I know there is a comparable honor component in CMA, but not exactly Bushido. Part of that struck me when I first watched Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story, and the Chinese elders essentially backstabbed Bruce Lee in the "honor fight." [I'm aware that was fiction -- allegedly -- but its the concept I'm pointing out].

But, particularly for those who practice a more eclectic martial arts regimen, particularly who tries to pick the good from all styles, one who favors CMA techniques, forms, styles, doesn't have to shun a code of honor, even Bushido. Heck, shouldn't we have a moral code, a code of honor, a sense of trust and loyalty, whether it is CMA, J/OMA, Korean, whatever? Or for that matter, whether it is martial arts based or not, one doesn't generally want to betray another's trust, and I think one owes some loyalty to one who benefits them. I'm not sure the exchange of money eliminates that debt. But you are correct, it goes both ways, although does being betrayed justify betrayal? Or is it more moral, and more honorable, to take a higher road?

But maybe that's just me. Or what I hope would be me if it came down to it.

[Lucas]

I know this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but my Bushido sense tingled, so I am compelled share a favorite entry. IMO the title 'Samurai' can also be substituted with 'Warrior'

The Way of the Samurai is found in death.
Meditation on inevitable death should be performed daily.
Every day, when one's body and mind are at peace,
one should meditate upon being ripped apart by arrows,
rifles, spears, and swords, being carried away by surging waves,
being thrown into the midst of a great fire, being struck by lightning,
being shaken to death by a great earthquake,
falling from thousand-foot cliffs,
dying of disease or committing seppuku at the death of one's master.
And every day, without fail, one should consider himself as dead.
This is the substance of the Way of the Samurai.

[Syn7]

Bushido is insanity. Sure, there are some great concepts that come from the code, but there's some serious bullsh1t up in there too. Not a concept I would want to follow blindly, that's for sure. I can't even begin to quantify the amount of suffering created by pride and honor. Far more bad than good tho, no doubt about that.

[Old Noob]

The conversation is interesting. I'll admit, that I am by no means an expert in the area of Chinese history or their culture or anthropology. Most of what I understand about it comes from Matt Polley and others who've spent time living over there. Consequently, what I do know is from a limited number of sources and also deals with the CMA community rather than the Chinese community at large. From what I've read,though, and I don't say this critically or judgmentally, there's more emphasis on saving face and appearances and less emphasis on whether what's being posited is ultimately true. Not to say that the society values or condones lying but rather it seems like they're more accepting of hyperbole and exageration (again in the martial arts culture; I don't know anything about the broader culture). I think these fundamental differences are why you hear about back room students verses students who, despite paying some sort of compensation, receive intentionally watered-down training. That's something you just don't seem to see as much in the transmission of JMA. Again, I'm not placing a value judgment on it. I've always elected to take CMAs over JMAs or KMAs. Starting judo this fall will be my first experience with JMA.