Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Bushido is insanity. Sure, there are some great concepts that come from the code, but there's some serious bullsh1t up in there too. Not a concept I would want to follow blindly, that's for sure. I can't even begin to quantify the amount of suffering created by pride and honor. Far more bad than good tho, no doubt about that.

I agree, which is why I love the post WWII samurai films of Kurosawa and more specifically Masaki Kobayashi are so fascinating because they draw parallels to the injustice done in the name of honor in WWII and in the Tokogawa period in the name of Bushido. Harakiri and Samurai Rebellion is particularly interesting in exploring these concepts as Bushido is pitted against an individual's sense of love and familial relations. Sorry, I just geeked out a little on my love of films.

[Judge Pen]

The conversation is interesting. I'll admit, that I am by no means an expert in the area of Chinese history or their culture or anthropology. Most of what I understand about it comes from Matt Polley and others who've spent time living over there. Consequently, what I do know is from a limited number of sources and also deals with the CMA community rather than the Chinese community at large. From what I've read,though, and I don't say this critically or judgmentally, there's more emphasis on saving face and appearances and less emphasis on whether what's being posited is ultimately true. Not to say that the society values or condones lying but rather it seems like they're more accepting of hyperbole and exageration (again in the martial arts culture; I don't know anything about the broader culture). I think these fundamental differences are why you hear about back room students verses students who, despite paying some sort of compensation, receive intentionally watered-down training. That's something you just don't seem to see as much in the transmission of JMA. Again, I'm not placing a value judgment on it. I've always elected to take CMAs over JMAs or KMAs. Starting judo this fall will be my first experience with JMA.

Well, to bring this back to SD, there's no shortage of hyperbole and exageration in its history.

[Empty_Cup]

Well, to bring this back to SD, there's no shortage of hyperbole and exageration in its history.

True. As is the same with nearly every other multi-gen MA out there. At the inevitable point when students rely on hearsay to pass on traditions there is sure to be exaggeration and hyperbole whether malicious or not.

All the more reason to not put so much faith and stock into lineage and instead focus on how to best adapt your practice to current and future needs.

[Judge Pen]

Lineage is everything in regards to TCMA. the person who doesn't care about lineage, i'd have to question his loyalty to his family, wife, or children. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything.

Frank, I respect the fact that you love your teacher like your family. And you love your lineage like your family tree. I love my family with all my heart, soul body and mind, but my teacher is not my family. I respect my teacher for his knowledge and his ability to help me train to defend myself.

Let me ask you this, a house is on fire and you can only save your wife or your sifu (not both): Who do you choose? If you dance around the answer, then it is already apparent.

[Lucas]

Depends on the wife! Badabing!!!!

[Judge Pen]

Frank, you are wrong about me. I have risked my life to save strangers and I would gladly give it to save my friends and family. But I would chose my family first. And dying to save both is what most good people would probably do, but it is dancing around the hypothetical which forces you to chose one and only one.

But as Rodney Dangerfield pointed out, wife might not be the best example. What if it were you infant child? Blood is thicker than lineage (unless its your family style of course).

[Judge Pen]

anyways, in case i haven't stated it clearly, if the house was burning down and inside it were my friends, my wife, child and Sifu, his wife and kids....."I WOULD GLADLY DIE IN ORDER TO SAVE THEM ALL.

SEE THIS HERE....I WOULD GLADLY DIE FOR THEM AS WELL. WHY? ITS CALLED FAMILIA!

Gotcha! And I believe you. Who would you grab first? Your child, wife, sifu, friends? First-come, first-served? You're a big strong guy, but you can't carry them all out at the same time. That's a big family.

[Lucas]

Sounds like you got 99 problems....

[Lucas]

i knew you would have the other half

[One student]

Bushido is insanity. Sure, there are some great concepts that come from the code, but there's some serious bullsh1t up in there too. Not a concept I would want to follow blindly, that's for sure. I can't even begin to quantify the amount of suffering created by pride and honor. Far more bad than good tho, no doubt about that.

Substitute any number of other "codes" or "beliefs" or concepts for the word "Bushido" in your comment, and still true: Democracy, Communism, Capitalism, Socialism, and a large number of religions. Can debate the "more bad than good" about many of them. But so true: do not follow it all blindly, but judiciously.

[Empty_Cup]

...

All the more reason to not put so much faith and stock into lineage and instead focus on how to best adapt your practice to current and future needs.

Lineage is everything in regards to TCMA. the person who doesn't care about lineage, i'd have to question his loyalty to his family, wife, or children. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything.

I highly disagree that "lineage is everything in regards to TCMA."

Dedication and continual learning will propel students much further than a noble lineage.

[Empty_Cup]

you're entitled to disagree. funny thing is, IT IS within the CHINESE KUNG FU lineages. the ones ran by Chinese, not long lines of Bak Gwai teaching chinese kung fu. Don't know where you learned, but come to chinatown i'll introduce you to a ton of people who disagree with you. and their entitled to that

...

You don't speak for all Chinese Kung Fu schools and lineages. Chinese Kung Fu is called "Chinese" because it originated in China, not because being Chinese is a requirement for skilled practice. Being non-Chinese doesn't lessen the quality of the skill in and of itself.

[Old Noob]

You're right about that being where we differ (there are probably others too). I really enjoy kung fu and many of the other students at the qwoon have become by closest friends. My sifu has also become a friend of mine (we are the same age only he has been training continuously whereas me...not so much), but he's not my family. A long time ago, either on this thread or in another, I mentioned that I pay my sifu to instruct me and that, therfore, there will always be a commercial element to my relationship with my Sifu. Because I am a consumer of a product, i.e., the training, its never going to be a "family" situation. Maybe that's why I don't get that bent out of shape about lineage.

[Empty_Cup]

ahhh so you DO come from a long line of WHITE kung fu teachers. figures you'd feel this way.

I could come from a long line of white, brown, yellow, green, and blue teachers...it doesn't lend any support to your argument either way.

The point I made several posts ago was that lineage in and of itself does not make or break a martial artist. Race, IMO, has nothing to do with the debate.

[Empty_Cup]

i have a sneaky feeling you're Shaolin Do and THAT explains everything to me.



No, it doesn't. but if i had a choice to learn from Shaolin Do or some old Chinese gung fu master. my choice is will be obvious. i wouldn't want to be from that lineage EVER. see, lineage does tell me who is fake or who is real. it tells me if you are a fraud or not. see, the frauds don't really know gung fu and care nothing about lineage. thank god I do.

Your logic is a circular argument and assumes the conclusion.

i.e. Lineage is what distinguishes good kung fu vs. frauds. Frauds don't care about lineage and good kung fu students do. Therefore people who care about lineage are good kung fu students and people who don't care are frauds.