View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #14641
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    lineage is very important if you are a bearer of that lineage. its not necessarily so if you arent directly involved in the lineage continuation. however lineage can be important in verifying the legitimacy of your style and its roots. i am not concerned with lineage, yet my sifu could trace his back through the temple he was raised and trained in. most sifu will have a lineage they can show you, which amounts to a resume of their wu su career. if someone professes to be a master of a particular academic subject, you'd likely want to know what university they attended to gain this degree.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  2. #14642

    For the record

    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    Yeah...well....um. OH WELL. I'm proud to be apart of my historical lineage that teaches authentic chinese gung fu. In my lineage we don't use words like "DO" unless its money or a sword. in fact, zero authentic chinese gung fu styles don't either.

    Shaolin and Do. Shaolin (chinese). Do (japanese). two different cultures in the same name while the teacher and everyone in it wears karate gi's (japanese) and wear japanese karate belts but tells them they are learning true chinese gung fu. strange thing about it, none of it looks like gung fu, feels TOTALLY like Karate and uses KARATE terminology when describing chinese techniques.

    Long live the Kungarate!!!!!



    Choy Lee Fut is very circular too.
    Please don't take this as a blanket defense of SD. There are certainly aspects of it that are worthy of criticism and skepticism. However, there are some irrefutable facts that refute some of the points that you're making.

    No matter what you believe about SD's origins, it is indesputable that Sin The is Chinese, that he grew up and received martial arts training in Bandung, Indonesia, and that the majority of his teachers (if not all of them) were ethnic chinese.

    So you can say what you want about the karatefication of this or that or that SD is karate modified by what Sin The found in CMA books, but those would be really ignorant assertions on your part.

    The best criticisms are delivered by those familiar with that which they're criticizing. Your comments regarding the five animals form, for instance, were incisive and useful. Your comments about the origins of SD and the races of its practitioner are really just reflections of ignorance and prejudice.

  3. #14643
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    Question, first thanks for the comments about the 5 animal form. however, have you trained in an authentic Chinese Gung Fu school ran by a chinese teacher with a real lineage himself? if yes, who was that? If not, can you tell me how you know the difference of what its like learning in an authentic gung fu school as opposed to learning Shaolin Do?
    I'll attempt to answer your question. As I've mentioned, I haven't had a lot of experience, but I did take longfist from Sifu Mike Barry for a little over a year when I was in high school. Mike Barry is not Chinese but my understanding is that he is very well respected in jow ga and longfist circles and that he comes from a recognized lineage. I don't know precisely what tha lineage is because, as I've also said, lineage has never been as important to me as a consumer. I do know that you can goodle Sifu Barry and readily identify his lineage.

    I'll also admit that my experience with Sifu Barry is different than my experience in SD; uniforms are different, forms are different, movement is different. However, based on my admittedly low experience, I don't see the differences as any greater as say the difference between longfist and wing chung.

  4. #14644
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    Since jake the snake LOVES the HUA style so much he should have learned THEIR five animals form Hua To ("five animals play" - tiger, deer, monkey, bear and bird) was developed.
    not the same. haha!! the Hua animals are; ape tiger, dragon, leopard, and eagle.

    Funny thing is he is talking about the other WAH style, meaning flower, The Fist of Hua Mountain or Glorious( China) Fist is actually what he is refering to in his videos.

    Hua To's Five animal frolics are Qi Gong exercises.

  5. #14645

    what if....

    you come from a long, reputable, verifiable, chinese lineage and yet you still are a douche bag, then what?? Jake is really full of himself. He is his own counsel and advisor. totally un approachable and difficult to reason or talk with.

  6. #14646
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    WoW

    I am really enjoying all this let me intrude for a moment, SD is a good MA is it a traceable lineage style maybe who knows but GMT, do they make money at it sure . Is that bad ? Maybe it could be. I have done Traditional Tang Lang from a teacher as well as Hung Jia , also I have practiced Japanese Karate as it was taught by Gichin Funakoshi I trained with one of his last remaining Direct students. So I Know Karate. Nothing in SD is based upon Karate Principles. Does it look like it may be , some . Biut I know the difference, SD is not Pure or even close to Karate. But no one who learns the principles of Kung Fu will look just like their teacher. They may be able to convey the knowledge but to assume a style isnt real because of a person doing it poorly is loike saying all UT grads are hillbillies just because it is in east Tennessee. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  7. #14647
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    I know about bandung. My ex girls family lives there now. the reason for them being mostly chinese there is that this BANDUNG is city or whatever for the Chinese in Indonesia.

    I know know were or what Sin The learned. what i've seen from this Shaolin Do system from a GUNG FU perspective is karate trying to do kung fu with karate flavor.
    Jake the snake doesn't have any teachers but somehow teaches bits and pieces of forms he finds online and in books.

    No lineage. No history. NO gung fu.



    there's only one side of ignorance here. and for sure i'm excluded. I know the difference. Others know the difference. for example, did i create this thread?

    Did i ever comment in this thread prior to me finding jake the fake snake teaching a form that was learned from the book written by Doc Fai Wong? that would be a know. In fact, the moment i saw SHAOLIN "DO" on the name of this thread, i purposely avoided it cause it hand the rank smell of FRAUD in it.

    why doesn't shaolin do have a real lineage to speak of?



    Question, first thanks for the comments about the 5 animal form. however, have you trained in an authentic Chinese Gung Fu school ran by a chinese teacher with a real lineage himself? if yes, who was that? If not, can you tell me how you know the difference of what its like learning in an authentic gung fu school as opposed to learning Shaolin Do?
    You know that Jake is legally prohibited from claiming to be associated with Sin The and Shaolin-DO/CSC, right? He did have teachers and a lineage, but he had a legal falling out with both his immediate teachers the Soards, and then later with Sin The, so that he can't say who his teachers were in public or claim to be a part of their lineage. I don't think he learned anything directly from a book. He may be teaching things he doesn't know how to perform properly, but he's teaching them the way his teachers taught him. He should know better by now, and should make an effort to learn real history, but the fact remains that he didn't personally "steal" anything. He's teaching what he was taught. I know because I learned all the stuff he learned pretty much the same way he learned it, I was in CSC in Colorado at the same time that he was still a student there, before he was sent to teach in Phoenix. This isn't an excuse or support for how Sin The and Shaolin Do does things, but I think you're being a little too hard on Jake, who's teaching what he knows and loves, as misinformed and misguided as he might be. What if you found out that your lineage was a bunch of BS, and that your teacher's teacher was lying about a lot of stuff from the beginning, after devoting years learning and teaching what you believe is excellent martial arts? What would you do? I wouldn't and am not doing what Jake is doing, but then I wasn't making my livelihood from teaching with an established group of devoted students either.

    SD does have a "real" lineage, which goes from Sin The to Ie Chang Ming and other Chinese immigrants in Bandung, Java. What their lineages were isn't known. It is my impression that in Indonesia, there was less emphasis on lineage and more on making it work, and Sin The passed that on to his students in Kentucky, which was also convenient since he didn't have all that much material to pass on (which is why I believe he started teaching things from books and videos after a while, to keep his students devoted and interested in his school).

    Another question...how many different martial arts have you practiced, other than Hung Sing CLF? You know not all Chinese styles move and look like CLF, right? There are many kinds of "gung fu", and different Chinese styles do not all agree on what is correct, some are very different from one another. SD's foundational material and forms, the unique ones not borrowed/stolen from books and other styles, are Chinese martial arts. There isn't any karate in there. It's sort of insulting to karate, which I have practiced for over 20 years, to call any bad-looking Chinese martial art "karate". There is a core of Chinese martial arts, in the Indonesian tradition called "kun tao", which is what Shaolin Do really is. Sin The may be ridiculous and a liar, and it may have been taught poorly, but that is what it is. A mixed up blend of different Chinese martial arts from Indonesia, taught without regard to history or lineage, commericialized for the USA and adapted to the expectations of southeastern Americans regarding Asian martial arts in the 1960's. There should be an effort to re-learn or correct what has been learned in many cases, to teach the correct history and origin for many of the things that are taught, to remove material which was never properly learned by Sin The and his students, or at least to correct it by getting training from the source of that material.

    For the five animal form in particular, which is the issue that brought you in, I agree that it is being done incorrectly and that the true history and lineage of the form need to be taught. It either needs to be corrected with instruction from Hung Sing or not taught. In CSC we were not taught that, we were told that it is an old shaolin form from the temple and represented an entire five animal system, we thought that the CLF form was just another version of the form, and we had a more direct transmission from the shaolin temple. Which is apparently what Jake still chooses to believe. Or at least, he is choosing to continue the lie to make his material seem more legitimate. I decided to get Doc Fai Wong's book and video and correct the form for my own practice, a few years ago when I learned the true source of that form. It may be marked, but it is much better than how I was originally taught.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  8. #14648
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    hahha thats what i got off a website. i don't even know them hahaha.



    yes he is. ok just don't step on my toe.

    all this shaolin do **** is giving me a headache
    just trying to help.

  9. #14649
    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    oops. almost took your message wrong. haha. didn't see the what if.

    jake is the prime example of self love. he has an eery glaze when he stares into camera. probably telling himself how good he is. LOL.

    i find his PERFECT this or that video's completely hilarious. he's a fekkin pregnant ostrich. A pelicano. or my favorite "TORTA FACCIA".
    HAHA Funny

  10. #14650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    he didn't have all that much material to pass on (which is why I believe he started teaching things from books and videos after a while, to keep his students devoted and interested in his school).
    this could also very well be the source of the conflict. just because you know martial arts doesnt mean you'll be able to capture the essence of a style very well out of a book, or even from a video without hands on instruction and correction.
    For whoso comes amongst many shall one day find that no one man is by so far the mightiest of all.

  11. #14651
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    i've practiced karate, Judo, Tai Mantis, and tae Kwon Do all by the age of 14. From 14 till the present. Just Choy Lee Fut. However, I live in whats known to be the gung fu mecca. almost every style of gung fu can be found here. So, after 30 years of experience in CLF, and the fact that i was born into a karate family, i know the difference between gung fu and karate. karate flavor is very distinct. to people who are around gung fu they can point it out as well.



    This is what got me into the history of my lineage. first, even as a kid i knew my sifu could fight. but i'd ask his friends or others that knew him during that time. thank god my sifu has a legit history. but if i found out he was fake, i'd expose him because people don't need to be lied to.



    then i can take half the blame away from him. i'm sorry HE got lied to. However, jake perpetuated that lie by lying to me that he knows many teachers in China who practice this exact form. he should have just said i learned it from my teacher.



    has anyone done any real research to trace this lineage? and can you please answer the questions for me about what shaolin temple your history was talking about? the dates are way off and the shaolin temple was destroyed by Qing Soldiers, not by shaolin Monks themselves. so right there, is a red flag for me.



    from what style? Shaolin? is that northern or southern? and again, from 1849 to 1928 what shaolin temple was destroyed that there isn't any info on it anywhere? its not directed at you, don't take it that way. its just my questions.



    ok, can you tell me why your lineage uses karate terms instead of the Shaolin terms like most of the shaolin schools do? for example, jakes "SMASH" kick is a crescent kick. why not use its correct terminology instead of using something karate people use? oh i'm not the only one that feels jakes kungarate looks more karate than he does gung fu.



    this causes my stomach to turn. people don't deserve to be lied to this way. i feel so bad for you guys. i do. i'd hate to be in your positions.




    if this was done in the first place no one would ever hear from me. i would just put my head down and keep walking by. i'd never learn from a book, but if i did i'd give it its respect for being the source. so much is lost without proper teaching.

    I hope you can understand why jakes demo of our form sickened me. i actually felt violated. had to go and check. whew! if his demo of my lineages form is an example of what your master taught you, then i won't blame him for how he looks while doing it. its sucks cause there is way more to this form that you guys are missing that couldn't be put in a book.



    at least you can see how the form is different by watching DFW and looking at jake. jake doesn't do it right. however, there was some things changed in it. but i can tell what and where its been changed. now, there is one element missing in that form and video and i will say its the internal part. that form isn't a hard n fast 5 animal form like we see today. its internal. and thats whats missing. but you still have know how we do it to understand it completely.

    if you're willing to come down maybe meet my sifu, offer him up a red envelope i might be able to get him to correct you. if you'd like. but thats if he's up to it. and there's a chance he might not be.
    Well, I'd love to travel around the country and the world seeking out martial arts teachers, and I'd love to learn from Hung Sing, too. If I were single I would actually consider taking trips like that, since I would be spending all my money and time on martial arts rather than on homemaking with the wife . For now, it's just practicing what I already know and supplement with personal research, there's actually a lot to work on. Thank you for the offer, though.

    The shaolin do history story is mostly a fable, it isn't real. We were taught that it came from the southern shaolin temple, but they got it confused with the destruction of the northern temple in 1928. Several other things they teach as history are also incorrect for one reason or another, or just plain legend. The fact is, no one really knows where it came from before Indonesia, and researching anything more is pretty much impossible without Sin The's cooperation. Based on studying different types of Chinese martial arts, northern and southern, and having practiced karate for most of my life, and researching into the martial arts of Java and Indonesia, I have come to the conclusion for myself that there is actual Chinese martial arts there. I believe it is a mixture of northern and southern styles maybe even blended with some Indonesian methods. The basic line exercises taught, that we called short forms or lohan, are northern style longfist, what exactly I couldn't say. Some of the unique forms are a blend of fujian styles like white crane and northern styles. I believe Sin The's family is from Fujian, they speak the Min dialect of that province I think, that is the language most of the material is presented in. The information about the types of Chinese martial arts found in western Java from Donn Draeger's book corroborates that observation, as he mentions fukien styles and shandong styles as well as the internal styles all coexisting in this area of Indonesia. While SD may have been poor instruction in some cases, there was something Chinese from Indonesia that was being taught, alongside some things which Sin The probably learned from books or videos and then taught as his own.
    I don't know why they used Japanese terms for ranks and exercises when he started in Kentucky, since there is nothing of karate in there, at least from my experience with Okinawan karate (which I have been practicing for over 20 years). The school I joined in Colorado didn't use Japanese words for anything, it was all Chinese, though they still had the uniforms.
    Karate doesn't use the term "smash kick" either, it is also a crescent kick, hangestsu geri. That is something Sin The made up, I think.
    I know you're not the only one who thinks SD looks more karate than kung fu, but the people who say that mostly don't seem to know karate very well. I would have known immediately if what I was learning was just karate with a different name. There are no karate techniques there. It may be more stiff, more rigid than Chinese martial arts are usually performed. Not enough connection between lower body and upper body, no good flow. That is indication to me that Sin The may not have had the level of skill that he claims to, or he wasn't a very good teacher that his students never got past a very beginner stage of performance. Of course, they did a lot of conditioning and heavy sparring, not so much focus on forms, and were tough fighters in their own manner, so how skilled and successfull he was as a teacher is up for debate on that front. But based on talking with some of the guys who were students back in the 60's, it seems that tradition and lineage were not their focus, it was fighting, and as the years went on and he wanted to reach a bigger audience than just a few guys who liked to brawl, he had to start looking for other things to teach (more forms), and started telling this whole history to play on people's fantasy about the shaolin temple and Chinese martial arts. Then the stiff beginner level of basics just got applied to every form that he learned and taught, and that is why everything looks the way it does. Not because it is karate, but because there were never the correct fundamentals to perform those forms correctly.

    I know CMA people tend to have a poor view of karate, and vice versa. I find that this opinion usually is not based on actual experience, but generalizations and stereotypes. Bad kung fu does not equal karate, it is just bad kung fu. Maybe bad karate and bad kung fu are more similar, because they are both usually missing a method of moving the body in a connected way.

    I can understand feeling disturbed at seeing someone perform a form you are familiar with in a strange or incorrect way. I have never had the familial sense of ownership of my martial arts as you do, the styles I have learned are all so widespread that the specific kata can't be said to belong to just one lineage or family. The Okinawan kata are spread all over several karate styles, so if I see one of my kata being mangled, all I can really do is shake my head, since it doesn't belong only to my school, and I'm not Okinawan.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  12. #14652
    Quote Originally Posted by One student View Post
    Substitute any number of other "codes" or "beliefs" or concepts for the word "Bushido" in your comment, and still true: Democracy, Communism, Capitalism, Socialism, and a large number of religions. Can debate the "more bad than good" about many of them. But so true: do not follow it all blindly, but judiciously.
    Yeah but they aren't all equal in their damage. All cultures are a mix of good and bad, some worse than others. The Bushido code is one of the most ignorant approaches to righteousness I have ever seen. I can name a few more just as bad and a ton more that vary as to how bad they are, but Bushido was talked about in this thread.

    I guess it depends on how you define honor, but for the most part it's all prideful garbage.

  13. #14653
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Noob View Post
    I don't see the differences as any greater as say the difference between longfist and wing chung.
    Noticing the differences comes from experience, which you freely admit you don't understand. You won't understand until after you have the experience. Then it will be obvious. Think of all your parents tell you when you're a kid then when you grow up you see they actually did know what they were talking about. It's all about experience.

    HSK, anyone well acquainted with CMA's would have had the same thoughts based on the title alone. We all did, you aren't alone there. Shaolin-Do screams of fraud. Again, it takes experience to see that.

  14. #14654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    Well, I'd love to travel around the country and the world seeking out martial arts teachers, and I'd love to learn from Hung Sing, too. If I were single I would actually consider taking trips like that, since I would be spending all my money and time on martial arts rather than on homemaking with the wife . For now, it's just practicing what I already know and supplement with personal research, there's actually a lot to work on. Thank you for the offer, though.

    The shaolin do history story is mostly a fable, it isn't real. We were taught that it came from the southern shaolin temple, but they got it confused with the destruction of the northern temple in 1928. Several other things they teach as history are also incorrect for one reason or another, or just plain legend. The fact is, no one really knows where it came from before Indonesia, and researching anything more is pretty much impossible without Sin The's cooperation. Based on studying different types of Chinese martial arts, northern and southern, and having practiced karate for most of my life, and researching into the martial arts of Java and Indonesia, I have come to the conclusion for myself that there is actual Chinese martial arts there. I believe it is a mixture of northern and southern styles maybe even blended with some Indonesian methods. The basic line exercises taught, that we called short forms or lohan, are northern style longfist, what exactly I couldn't say. Some of the unique forms are a blend of fujian styles like white crane and northern styles. I believe Sin The's family is from Fujian, they speak the Min dialect of that province I think, that is the language most of the material is presented in. The information about the types of Chinese martial arts found in western Java from Donn Draeger's book corroborates that observation, as he mentions fukien styles and shandong styles as well as the internal styles all coexisting in this area of Indonesia. While SD may have been poor instruction in some cases, there was something Chinese from Indonesia that was being taught, alongside some things which Sin The probably learned from books or videos and then taught as his own.
    I don't know why they used Japanese terms for ranks and exercises when he started in Kentucky, since there is nothing of karate in there, at least from my experience with Okinawan karate (which I have been practicing for over 20 years). The school I joined in Colorado didn't use Japanese words for anything, it was all Chinese, though they still had the uniforms.
    Karate doesn't use the term "smash kick" either, it is also a crescent kick, hangestsu geri. That is something Sin The made up, I think.
    I know you're not the only one who thinks SD looks more karate than kung fu, but the people who say that mostly don't seem to know karate very well. I would have known immediately if what I was learning was just karate with a different name. There are no karate techniques there. It may be more stiff, more rigid than Chinese martial arts are usually performed. Not enough connection between lower body and upper body, no good flow. That is indication to me that Sin The may not have had the level of skill that he claims to, or he wasn't a very good teacher that his students never got past a very beginner stage of performance. Of course, they did a lot of conditioning and heavy sparring, not so much focus on forms, and were tough fighters in their own manner, so how skilled and successfull he was as a teacher is up for debate on that front. But based on talking with some of the guys who were students back in the 60's, it seems that tradition and lineage were not their focus, it was fighting, and as the years went on and he wanted to reach a bigger audience than just a few guys who liked to brawl, he had to start looking for other things to teach (more forms), and started telling this whole history to play on people's fantasy about the shaolin temple and Chinese martial arts. Then the stiff beginner level of basics just got applied to every form that he learned and taught, and that is why everything looks the way it does. Not because it is karate, but because there were never the correct fundamentals to perform those forms correctly.

    I know CMA people tend to have a poor view of karate, and vice versa. I find that this opinion usually is not based on actual experience, but generalizations and stereotypes. Bad kung fu does not equal karate, it is just bad kung fu. Maybe bad karate and bad kung fu are more similar, because they are both usually missing a method of moving the body in a connected way.

    I can understand feeling disturbed at seeing someone perform a form you are familiar with in a strange or incorrect way. I have never had the familial sense of ownership of my martial arts as you do, the styles I have learned are all so widespread that the specific kata can't be said to belong to just one lineage or family. The Okinawan kata are spread all over several karate styles, so if I see one of my kata being mangled, all I can really do is shake my head, since it doesn't belong only to my school, and I'm not Okinawan.
    Interesting post...you mentioned the book by Donn do you have any more references of the Chinese society living in Bandung at that time?

  15. #14655
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    i don't feel that way. i think all styles are good. they are the tools a fighter will use. if the fighter is no good, the style is no good.
    So if a style without a verifiable linage creates a good fighter, than the style is good?

    If a family member lied to you would you expose them as frauds?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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