Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

now this is Chen Tai Chi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS0QYq26V2g

and it looks nothing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCzfoxTq5Y&feature=plcp

**** spell checker makes chuan into churn!!!!

Sin The's chen Tai Chi should be called Sin The Tai Chi.
i've never seen anything move that we he does.

and JAKE THE FAKE is completely missing whats in this video. if you can't see it, don't bother asking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJMNG...feature=relmfu

chen yu is what i think of as chen tai chi chuan. he is a clip. there are many of him doing form, push hands and applications. in my opinion all very impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SSiRbTAn3A

i really do not get sin the and his interpritation of chen tai chi chuan. "they" told me that this chen style sin the does is from the shaolin temple. on a china trip he was told it was 17th gen and not what ever he had been calling it. that "sounds" old right? well it was still taught that it came from the fukien shaoilin temple and is the most ancient form of tai chi chuan.

**** information age ;-0

[brucereiter]

these are the top final word and reference of what shaolin do "internal" is. what are your opinions? i think they are missing a lot of understanding of these arts.

bill leonard hsing i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD71yIJq_jU&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn2bCmsOejk&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6qVYXEbWmk&feature=plcp

bill leonard chen tai chi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCzfoxTq5Y&feature=plcp

sin the chen tai chi chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwbbEl6Ye6E&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1CGWQ_FyQI&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_SRZJYK2Vw&feature=plcp

i am not poking fun just looking objectively. one could look at my own videos and find faults and many have but i do not claim to be a grand master or 9th degree master over a system of martial arts and have the material "straight from the temple" "just the way the monks used to practice" both of these men have claimed to be masters of these arts.

[Empty_Cup]

these are the top final word and reference of what shaolin do "internal" is. what are your opinions? i think they are missing a lot of understanding of these arts.

bill leonard hsing i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD71yIJq_jU&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn2bCmsOejk&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6qVYXEbWmk&feature=plcp

sin the chen tai chi chuan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCzfoxTq5Y&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwbbEl6Ye6E&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1CGWQ_FyQI&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_SRZJYK2Vw&feature=plcp

i am not poking fun just looking objectively. one could look at my own videos and find faults and many have but i do not claim to be a grand master or 9th degree master over a system of martial arts and have the material "straight from the temple" "just the way the monks used to practice" both of these men have claimed to be masters of these arts.

Just FYI...your first video under "sin the chen tai chi chuan" looks to be EML, not GMS.

So in the examples showing the beginning of the Chen 83 form, do folks consider the sequencing of GMS and GM Xiaowang to be drastically different? The same? Similar but different interpretations? What do folks think? We can talk actual execution but let's talk sequencing first.

[bodhi warrior]

Just FYI...your first video under "sin the chen tai chi chuan" looks to be EML, not GMS.

So in the examples showing the beginning of the Chen 83 form, do folks consider the sequencing of GMS and GM Xiaowang to be drastically different? The same? Similar but different interpretations? What do folks think? We can talk actual execution but let's talk sequencing first.

Sin the's version has more hand waving.

[brucereiter]

Just FYI...your first video under "sin the chen tai chi chuan" looks to be EML, not GMS.

my typo... thanks i corrected it.

So in the examples showing the beginning of the Chen 83 form, do folks consider the sequencing of GMS and GM Xiaowang to be drastically different? The same? Similar but different interpretations? What do folks think? We can talk actual execution but let's talk sequencing first.

the "sequence" is the same. but sin the and bill leonard both ignore or are ignorant of some of the things that make chen tai chi chuan different. look at the direction of the hips vs the hands with most any chen xin jia (new frame 17th gen) you will see at least similarities in "body method"

============================================
he is a clip of me doing the start of yang and the start of chen xin jia. i am not an expert and many would say it is not even chen tai chi but i do think it is approaching the right path in some ways. in addition i have found value in the martial ideas i reverse engineered from practicing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvaC2h1X5qw
============================================

i think these guys and many of their students have some great chen tai chi chuan skills.

feng zhiqiang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3A_0...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNP8s2wf2CA
==========================================
chen yu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsvspxBUvZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAkfG...eature=related
==========================================
chen xioawang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqH-lnbrgA8
==========================================
Chen Xiao Xing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIDPV...eature=related

[Vajramusti]

My My

Such bad imitations and such a long and seemingly endless thread. Ugh.

[tattooedmonk]

You just gave this thread what it needed to get to 10,000! With the videos, can we start with proper posture , structural alignment, and mechanics?

[Empty_Cup]

my typo... thanks i corrected it.



the "sequence" is the same. but sin the and bill leonard both ignore or are ignorant of some of the things that make chen tai chi chuan different. look at the direction of the hips vs the hands with most any chen xin jia (new frame 17th gen) you will see at least similarities in "body method"

============================================
he is a clip of me doing the start of yang and the start of chen xin jia. i am not an expert and many would say it is not even chen tai chi but i do think it is approaching the right path in some ways. in addition i have found value in the martial ideas i reverse engineered from practicing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvaC2h1X5qw
============================================

i think these guys and many of their students have some great chen tai chi chuan skills.

feng zhiqiang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3A_0...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNP8s2wf2CA
==========================================
chen yu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsvspxBUvZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAkfG...eature=related
==========================================
chen xioawang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqH-lnbrgA8
==========================================
Chen Xiao Xing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIDPV...eature=related

Ok, so you agree the sequence is the same, albeit with slight differences. In sin the chen tai chi sample #5 you posted, do you think the "body method" is drastically different from what it is supposed to look like in your opinion?

[Empty_Cup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqN92Ij2KFg

the bow that this man does right before doing something like tai chi, is that a kung fu bow he did?


NO! ITS A KARATE BOW! IN A KARATE GI! WHILE DOING CHINESE TAI CHI!
WHERE'S MY TU TU

So, let me get this straight. You're ripping on a guy who is publicly promoting the practice of tai chi because of the way he bows and what he is wearing?

[brucereiter]

Ok, so you agree the sequence is the same, albeit with slight differences. In sin the chen tai chi sample #5 you posted, do you think the "body method" is drastically different from what it is supposed to look like in your opinion?

i think the sequence is exactly the same. it is the method of performing the movements that is so different and off track.

my opinion is that what sin the and bill leonard show in these videos lack the body method or "shen fa" of tai chi chuan in general and chen tai chi chuan specifically.
what leonard and the show is drastically different from what it is "supposed to look like"
i think sin the did not learn chen tai chi chuan in indonesia when he was a kid.

i think sin the learned it from notes or book or video or maybe from a few lessons but did not have actual instructions in the methods of chen tai chi chuan nor did he spend time practicing and learning it.

================================================== ==
humans are stuck on labels ... and this is good it makes communication much easier.
for example if i ask someone to hand me a hammer and they hand me a jewelers screwdriver and they call that screwdriver a hammer we now have confusion but if we both can agree on language we can agree that a hammer is a hammer and a screw driver is a screw driver and even though they are both tools they both have different uses. i hope this analogy makes sense...

[brucereiter]

So, let me get this straight. You're ripping on a guy who is publicly promoting the practice of tai chi because of the way he bows and what he is wearing?

empty cup, what do you think of sin the's demonstration of chen tai chi chuan? or of sin the's senior student bill leonard who has been with him the longest

i wish people used their real names i feel silly calling someone empty cup.

[brucereiter]

You just gave this thread what it needed to get to 10,000! With the videos, can we start with proper posture , structural alignment, and mechanics?

look at the way sin the and bill leonard perform "six sealings/four closings". what are they doing? why are they doing it that way? what is their understanding of the martial applications of that posture? what is their understanding of the health benefits of this posture? why do they do it in a almost unrecognizable fashion to every other chen tai chi people (good or bad)?

[Judge Pen]

So, let me get this straight. You're ripping on a guy who is publicly promoting the practice of tai chi because of the way he bows and what he is wearing?

I don't care what someone wears, it's the movement, the method and the understanding that's the issue. I took a local chen tai chi class with another buddy of mine. I love my teachers, and they taught excellent applications for our tai chi, but the attention to detail in that one class was greater than I received in my SD tai chi training. The problem with the other local class was that they didn't fight, spar or teach applications.

Before people are too harsh on people practicing SD, keep in mind that not everyone lives in a "martial arts mecca". Some people, especially in areas of rural Appalachia and many parts of the south, have very limited options in training in martial arts. I can tell you that my SD training was miles beyond many of the other options that I had growing up. The teacher cared and was conscientious in his training. We trained hard, fought hard and laughed hard. Even though there were limitations in the art itself, it was better than the generic karate and TKD classes that were around. I made a point to spar people from those classes and could tell that my training was better. When I moved to a more populated area, I continued to meet, train and spar with as many people from other arts that I could, and I still felt like I could hold my own with anyone with the same level of experience as me. So I can sit back now and pick at everything that is wrong with SD. That's easy. But I can't discount what is right with it either. The marketing and stories are a farce, but if you have a teacher that cares, and you work hard at making it work, then there is plenty good there. But it needs to be labeled for what it is: a patch-work system that is a blend of kung tao, karate and kung fu that is it's own animal. The Pa Kua is applicable, but it's only a shadow of traditional pa kua. the Tai chi is applicable, but it is only a shadow of traditional tai chi.

This is the best I can say about SD. I will teach my kids what I have learned. How to apply what I know. I won't tell them bogus stories of hairy monks and lineages that no one knows about. I will say this is how you respond if this occurs and work their asses off. They will be fine. I am.

[tattooedmonk]

look at the way sin the and bill leonard perform "six sealings/four closings". what are they doing? why are they doing it that way? what is their understanding of the martial applications of that posture? what is their understanding of the health benefits of this posture? why do they do it in a almost unrecognizable fashion to every other chen tai chi people (good or bad)?

it's just plain sloppy, no attention paid to detail. As with all the material. It's like no one cares.

[tattooedmonk]

I don't care what someone wears, it's the movement, the method and the understanding that's the issue. I took a local chen tai chi class with another buddy of mine. I love my teachers, and they taught excellent applications for our tai chi, but the attention to detail in that one class was greater than I received in my SD tai chi training. The problem with the other local class was that they didn't fight, spar or teach applications.

Before people are too harsh on people practicing SD, keep in mind that not everyone lives in a "martial arts mecca". Some people, especially in areas of rural Appalachia and many parts of the south, have very limited options in training in martial arts. I can tell you that my SD training was miles beyond many of the other options that I had growing up. The teacher cared and was conscientious in his training. We trained hard, fought hard and laughed hard. Even though there were limitations in the art itself, it was better than the generic karate and TKD classes that were around. I made a point to spar people from those classes and could tell that my training was better. When I moved to a more populated area, I continued to meet, train and spar with as many people from other arts that I could, and I still felt like I could hold my own with anyone with the same level of experience as me. So I can sit back now and pick at everything that is wrong with SD. That's easy. But I can't discount what is right with it either. The marketing and stories are a farce, but if you have a teacher that cares, and you work hard at making it work, then there is plenty good there. But it needs to be labeled for what it is: a patch-work system that is a blend of kung tao, karate and kung fu that is it's own animal. The Pa Kua is applicable, but it's only a shadow of traditional pa kua. the Tai chi is applicable, but it is only a shadow of traditional tai chi.

This is the best I can say about SD. I will teach my kids what I have learned. How to apply what I know. I won't tell them bogus stories of hairy monks and lineages that no one knows about. I will say this is how you respond if this occurs and work their asses off. They will be fine. I am.

Perfect JP