Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah... that's not where the hoi jong ends. There's only one way to learn that...

Haha you kill me sean!

[Drake]

Is Yang 64 like a Commodore 64?

[tattooedmonk]

Is Yang 64 like a Commodore 64?

the Commodores doing yang back in 1964!

[Judge Pen]

Wow!!! That was a black belt? That was some shameful sh1t for a black belt.

or maybe he just slowed it WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down so we can all admire his technique without the tracers. Yeah, that must be it

All that would totally work. I hope women aren't taking chances down dark alleys because of some confidence from this sh1t.

Doing that for real will get you boot stomped by anyone bigger or street conditioned, let alone a real fighter. Heaven forbid one of these guys beaks off to a real fighter.

No, they were blue and green. Still bad, but beginners.

Sorry, been away for a while.

Sean, I can't wait to compare note with you later. It's been too long.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, I can't wait to compare note with you later. It's been too long.

Starting to plan my escape!! Fortunately for me, training has been moved to Friday PM rather than Saturday AM so I won't show up beat & stinky!!! Plus earlier too...

[Drake]

I'm just wondering how some of these SD might have turned out had they trained under a solid, non-controversial master. Like Frank said, some folks are just born for this stuff, and end up good, regardless of how they were trained.

Research opportunity lost...

[kwaichang]

Damo knocking at the Gate ? is that the name of the number 1 in 1-30 that u were taught if so do u have the names of the rest I never heard that before ? KC

[Old Noob]

I'm just wondering how some of these SD might have turned out had they trained under a solid, non-controversial master. Like Frank said, some folks are just born for this stuff, and end up good, regardless of how they were trained.

Research opportunity lost...

I don't think Nance and Grooms have failed in some way to achieve their potential as martial artists because you don't like the style they practice. They may have been good at style x or y or z, but they're good at SD too and represent the system better than some of its more senior members.

The system is a solid MA system. Even accepting that Sin The learned some material from books, etc., his structuring of the system, the curriculum development if you will, is superb. The core forms of the system (external) are clearly related and ordered in such as way as to make learning them progressively more challenging with the mastery of the subordinate forms giving you the skill elements necessary to learn the more difficult form. Further, many, Nance in particular, utilize the art effectively. The lineage is a lie and in many places, apparently, it's taught primarily as a means to earn the sifu's money and not to the higher standard that some of us would like to see maintained.

[Old Noob]

This isn't an SD-specific question but could be asked of anyone who attends a school that is open to the public.

My sifu runs his school as his business; that is to say he doesn't work otherwise. I think this is part of the reason that he is such an excellent martial artist himself. He trains constantly. At the school, most of the students are of a high caliber and hold themselves to pretty high standards but there are some that do not. Yet those who don't hold themselves to the higher standard (in my own opinion BTW) are still promoted.

For a while this bothered me. I didn't like it that someone who didn't meet my standard had the same credential that I did. I felt in some way that if another SD black belt sucked, it somehow devalued mine. That feeling may or may not be fueled by the BS conversations we have on here and the excuses we're constantly making for the bad versions of the material that seem to find their way on to the interwebs.

So I pressed my sifu on this issue gently. I asked him whether running his school as his source of income required him to compromise on his standards. His answer was helpful to me. He said that he was at peace with the standard he set. He promotes in his school when people can execute the required material and he thinks they are ready from an emotional and maturity standpoint. He said that when somebody meets that standard, they're "qualified," and they therefore deserve what they receive. The fact that I surpassed the standard doesn't effect the fact that those who aren't performing to my standard nonetheless meet the more objective standard that he has set for the school.

My sifu's answer got me to thinking and I'd be curious to get Drake's thoughts on this. I've been in the Army for a long time and have served under two types of leaders (well more than that but two types for this conversation). The first rewards his soldiers unendingly. If they meet the minimum qualification for a medal or award, they get it. The second is more stingy; they give awards very sparingly and often downgrade awards to awards that are normally given for less significant accomplishments. My experience has been that the Stingy approach creates two problems. First, morale has always been lower in units where the commander takes that approach; that approach manifests itself in other actions the commander takes as well. Second, soldiers coming from that unit don't look as good on paper as soldiers coming from units where the commanders reward accomplishment more freely. Thus a commander may think a soldier's awards look out of whack with his service record and may have an impression that the soldier is a ****bag before the soldier ever gets there.

When I started to apply my military experience to the qwoon and to consider my Sifu's answer, it made more sense to me. A minimum standard is a minimum standard. In an ideal world, that minimal standard would be very high but the truth is that the majority of people can't achieve standards set at the highest level. Then the question becomes who are you going to have in your system? In the Army analogy, are you going to have a 20,000 person Army of the fittest soldiers on earth or are you going to have a half a million people who can meet minimum standards and select the best from them to put into elite subdivisions? In the qwoon analogy, are you going to run a qwoon where you take only the five students who can do everything you teach perfectly and will represent you in only the best way possible, or are you going to have a thriving business so that you can train your best the way you want while running a school that produces reasonably good martial artists in its rank and file.

What are your thoughts?

[Empty_Cup]

This isn't an SD-specific question but could be asked of anyone who attends a school that is open to the public.

My sifu runs his school as his business; that is to say he doesn't work otherwise. I think this is part of the reason that he is such an excellent martial artist himself. He trains constantly. At the school, most of the students are of a high caliber and hold themselves to pretty high standards but there are some that do not. Yet those who don't hold themselves to the higher standard (in my own opinion BTW) are still promoted.

For a while this bothered me. I didn't like it that someone who didn't meet my standard had the same credential that I did. I felt in some way that if another SD black belt sucked, it somehow devalued mine. That feeling may or may not be fueled by the BS conversations we have on here and the excuses we're constantly making for the bad versions of the material that seem to find their way on to the interwebs.

So I pressed my sifu on this issue gently. I asked him whether running his school as his source of income required him to compromise on his standards. His answer was helpful to me. He said that he was at peace with the standard he set. He promotes in his school when people can execute the required material and he thinks they are ready from an emotional and maturity standpoint. He said that when somebody meets that standard, they're "qualified," and they therefore deserve what they receive. The fact that I surpassed the standard doesn't effect the fact that those who aren't performing to my standard nonetheless meet the more objective standard that he has set for the school.

My sifu's answer got me to thinking and I'd be curious to get Drake's thoughts on this. I've been in the Army for a long time and have served under two types of leaders (well more than that but two types for this conversation). The first rewards his soldiers unendingly. If they meet the minimum qualification for a medal or award, they get it. The second is more stingy; they give awards very sparingly and often downgrade awards to awards that are normally given for less significant accomplishments. My experience has been that the Stingy approach creates two problems. First, morale has always been lower in units where the commander takes that approach; that approach manifests itself in other actions the commander takes as well. Second, soldiers coming from that unit don't look as good on paper as soldiers coming from units where the commanders reward accomplishment more freely. Thus a commander may think a soldier's awards look out of whack with his service record and may have an impression that the soldier is a ****bag before the soldier ever gets there.

When I started to apply my military experience to the qwoon and to consider my Sifu's answer, it made more sense to me. A minimum standard is a minimum standard. In an ideal world, that minimal standard would be very high but the truth is that the majority of people can't achieve standards set at the highest level. Then the question becomes who are you going to have in your system? In the Army analogy, are you going to have a 20,000 person Army of the fittest soldiers on earth or are you going to have a half a million people who can meet minimum standards and select the best from them to put into elite subdivisions? In the qwoon analogy, are you going to run a qwoon where you take only the five students who can do everything you teach perfectly and will represent you in only the best way possible, or are you going to have a thriving business so that you can train your best the way you want while running a school that produces reasonably good martial artists in its rank and file.

What are your thoughts?

You've just described what I've heard called "martial arts hell" where you depend on income from students in order to keep the school open. When this happens, if you don't set a minimum standard, you're subject to whatever satisfies the consumer. This radically changes the student/teacher dynamic.

When I was growing up there were two schools in my area and I trained at both of them. The first one was Penjat Silat Bukti Negara and the guru taught as a passion, not as a source of living. He was a great fighter, and in general the students in that school were also of a high caliber. He also put on summer camps and just generally enjoyed the teaching. He could afford to be more stingy in promotions.

The second school was a Tae Kwon Do school and was run as a business. The head instructor was also a solid guy but ended up having to spend a lot of time behind a desk vs. out on the floor. The students were generally of a high caliber as well but there were more examples of quick rank advancements and compromises. I remember specifically that there was a requirement to wait at least 6 months to go from red belt to brown belt. The next thing you knew, students were making this jump at less than 3 months. They knew the structure of the form at least.

[Old Noob]

You've just described what I've heard called "martial arts hell" where you depend on income from students in order to keep the school open. When this happens, if you don't set a minimum standard, you're subject to whatever satisfies the consumer. This radically changes the student/teacher dynamic.

When I was growing up there were two schools in my area and I trained at both of them. The first one was Penjat Silat Bukti Negara and the guru taught as a passion, not as a source of living. He was a great fighter, and in general the students in that school were also of a high caliber. He also put on summer camps and just generally enjoyed the teaching. He could afford to be more stingy in promotions.

The second school was a Tae Kwon Do school and was run as a business. The head instructor was also a solid guy but ended up having to spend a lot of time behind a desk vs. out on the floor. The students were generally of a high caliber as well but there were more examples of quick rank advancements and compromises. I remember specifically that there was a requirement to wait at least 6 months to go from red belt to brown belt. The next thing you knew, students were making this jump at less than 3 months. They knew the structure of the form at least.

So what's your opinion on that. Given that my sifu is a great teacher and that I, and many others at my school get an awesome martial eduction, and that he wouldn't be able to keep his school open if he taught only to the best students, are you okay training in a school where some of its members might not be pracitioners that would make you proud as long as you're getting what you're paying for?

[Empty_Cup]

So what's your opinion on that. Given that my sifu is a great teacher and that I, and many others at my school get an awesome martial eduction, and that he wouldn't be able to keep his school open if he taught only to the best students, are you okay training in a school where some of its members might not be pracitioners that would make you proud as long as you're getting what you're paying for?

I like the idea of setting a minimum standard for promotion. IMO this minimum standard should be much more than "can remember the form sequence." How much more is up to the instructor. If the min standard is set, it shouldn't really matter if the school is for income or not. There might certainly be a short-term tradeoff in $$ when you don't bring in as many belt fees but the long-term gain is worth it.

In general I think a lot of students are underestimated. There are certainly folks out there who say, "If I'm not a black belt by next year then I'll quit!" but in general I feel most people want to put in the time, effort, and work to be great. They want to feel that satisfaction of doing something well and knowing the hard work it took to get there. Self-motivation is the most powerful factor on the planet. Once the minimum standard has been set, it's up to the student to decide how much higher they want to shoot for.

[tattooedmonk]

Damo knocking at the Gate ? is that the name of the number 1 in 1-30 that u were taught if so do u have the names of the rest I never heard that before ? KC

PM me...

[kwaichang]

Yeah sure perfect for what , no strength there. Good flexibility though. Now about the rank and good and bad students , the progress should be graded against oneself not in relation to others. Water will seek its own level place. People will progress as they can . KC Everything else is pure ego.

[MasterKiller]

This mega-thread and bullshido have done more than enough to reveal controversy within the SD system to any current or prospective internet-literate students. They have done more than enough to deface the credibility of the system's founder and top student(s) if not in fact then by sheer volume and vehemence. That is/was the goal of SD antagonists, wasn't it?

So what I don't understand is the reason there continues to be the same, exhaustive points made about all of this. If the goal has been reached, why not just move on? I'm sure it makes folks feel good to sit on the throne of kung fu righteousness, bestowing wisdom upon the blissfully ignorant SD masses.

To be honest, I came to this thread to hopefully have some insightful and intelligent discussions with others who practice SD; even if SD is a pile of sh!t in the eyes of "true kung fu" practitioners. Instead, I have to wade through 50 posts of the same old arguments and accusations that have either already proven their point or are completely unprovable by this community.

I'm sure this post will also get buried. Ah well I guess we carry on...

Awww. Cry a river sometime.

For about 10 years before you showed up, SD people were vehement that everything Sin The' said was absolute truth and acted high and mighty about it. Even some of the more, shall we say...humbled... people in this thread were at one time foaming at the mouth about SD's authenticity.

So shut the f@ck up and take your come uppence.