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Thread: Training to old age

  1. #1
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    Training to old age

    One thing that inspired my martial arts career was some of the stories of people in their 80's who were still doing martial arts. Who we call the greats in martial arts tended to just train in their chosen arts.

    These people include Aikido's Uyeshiba, Judo's Jigoro Kano, Wing Chun's Yip Man, Karate's Funakoshi, Tai Chi's Yang Cheng Fu, Hung style's Wong Fei Hung , Balintawak's Ancio Bacon, Gracie's Helio Gracie etc.

    To me what these people did are ideals for martial art. They kept it up until the day they died. When I read about Thai boxers and Western boxers, they seem to hang up the gloves at a relatively early age and after that never do much of anything in the way of fighting again. I wonder if today's UFC/Pride/K1 fighters will have the desire to keep doing that to old
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

  2. #2
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    old age

    If you notice those who continue with their martial arts in to the venerable years they tend to not be so venerable, in thought, in action, in speech and with their martial arts. I want to be that way, so I can see things with greater knowledge and wisdom.

  3. #3
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    They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.

    I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill(an exception may be GJJ or BJJ, more technically based arts). This does not mean they won't be able to fight, just that their individual arts will not be nearly as effective as it was in their youth. This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse....


    James

  4. #4
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    Helio's not dead yet, Ray. Long may he live.

    I remember seeing a Muay Thai doco with a former fighter who was in his 60's at the time - he was still training and could still do head high kicks on the bags that hurt me on the other side of the TV screen.

    You don't see many old boxers in the gym, you still see a fair few who are trainers, referees, etc. I remember seeing a doco on an ex boxer in his 60's who had his own home gym setup, with a special rig for his heavy bag so it would move back and forth and he'd have to chase it.

    The wrestling coach at Machado BJJ HQ in Melbourne AUS was getting on the mat and terrorising his much younger students well into his seventies, he only stopped after his tragic death in a car accident.

    There aren't many sexagenarians in the ring, but then there are very few sportsmen who compete at an elite level outside the ring either. But to say older people in these sports no longer are involved or active within the sports is incorrect.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
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  5. #5
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    My mistake, I knew he wasn't dead, just wrong wording.

    My point was that maybe some arts are easier to keep up forever than others. One of my students finally had to pack in Judo because of injuries. So he found the Wing Chun training although not as exciting to him, a suitable substitute where he could still have some competition. Chi sau is kind of like a standup Judo for him I think.
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

  6. #6
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    That's great.

    I hope to be still active in MA after retirement myself, and somehow I don't think it will be in competitive Vale Tudo or kickboxing.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  7. #7
    Originally posted by sihing
    They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.

    one of my judo coaches is 75. He does it for the enjoyment. He loves judo and he loves to teach. He's on the may on a regular basis as well.

    I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill

    on a competitive level, no, they won't be. that doesn't mean that will not still be training, be referess, be coaches, etc. If WC were a highly competitive event, you would see similar breakdown.

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  8. #8
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    sihing wrote:

    They say old man Gracie(Heilo???) is still on the mat on a regular basis. I wonder why though? Does he still need to prove something or is it out of pure enjoyment of it. Although I enjoy training and practicing my WC, I do know of other things in life that give me more pleasure. So for pleasure and leisure I would not go to the kwoon, but I will continue to train and practice WC because I know it is good for me and there is a sense of joy involved.

    **Why does any athlete continue his activity into old age? To prove something? No, for the same reason they became involved in it in the first place -- because they enjoy it. They like surfing or mountain climbing or fighting or whatever. The champions/best of any activity do it because they love it and it becomes a huge part of their lives.

    I can pretty well guarantee that the present day UFC/Pride/K1 champs will not be doing the same things when they are older, the body will just break down after time, and since their arts require strength,speed & stamina to succeed they will not be able to maintain their present skill(an exception may be GJJ or BJJ, more technically based arts). This does not mean they won't be able to fight, just that their individual arts will not be nearly as effective as it was in their youth. This is what the Shaolin Masters realized and to combat this they developed the principals and concepts behind the Wing Chun system. A good Wing Chun man will get better with age not worse....

    **More mythic nonsense.

    Regards,

    Terence

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by t_niehoff
    **More mythic nonsense.
    Excuse me? Is it not true that most Martial Arts/Fighting Arts are primarily based on Speed and Strength, including boxing. WC isn't primarily based on this, but yes it does come in handy. I tell new students that they all ready have enough speed and strength to make it all work, they just lack the coordination. As long as one does not have a physical disability and is in possession of average strength levels, then they can make it work for them easier than the other MA out there. But guess what happens, as one begins to practice they do develop more power and speed, their neural pathways are developed and their muscles learn to relax in the execution of techniques, there by they develop speed and more strength. You ever wonder how a 150lbs tennis player can hit the ball 130mph? Yes, the new material they use to make the rackets helps but it is also because they are using coordinated movement and their entire body mass to generate the ability to serve that hard. Wing Chun's greatest strength is that it is a "SKILL" based MA, not Physically based, which means that it will increase with experience and wisdom in the art. Obviously if someone quit practicing and gave it up completely they would not improve with age, but they would not lose it all either, skills deteriorate slower. Its not that I think most fighting arts or artists do not possess skill either, but it's the conditioning that makes those arts work, and there is nothing wrong with that, its great to be in good shape, problem is not everyone can do this or wants to do this, so then what. Do these people have no options in the MA?

    James

  10. #10
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    You ever wonder how a 150lbs tennis player can hit the ball 130mph? Yes, the new material they use to make the rackets helps but it is also because they are using coordinated movement and their entire body mass to generate the ability to serve that hard. Wing Chun's greatest strength is that it is a "SKILL" based MA, not Physically based, which means that it will increase with experience and wisdom in the art.
    I agree completely on this. Just ad the principle of not going against the opponent force and it becomes very powerful. It is not the only way but you choose it or not!

  11. #11
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    Thumbs up sihing

    Good post....
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  12. #12
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    has anyone ever seen, or touched hands with Duncan Leong? He is well into his 60's and can throw down. If you do not develop your strength, power, flexibility and skill in your youth, you will have nothing left when you are old. There are plenty of Kung-Fu guys who in their later years, because of their consistancty of training are in superb shape, and maintain their skill level. Chang Dung Chen, comes to mind also. I was recently at a gathering of Judo and Jiu-Jitsu (Japanese) masters, and each and every one of them was a greybeard. These guys had flawless technique. They moved with effortless grace and a precision of movement that was truly a sight to behold. And they can cause real, unadulterated PAIN, with ease. Ever been on the receiving end of Wally Jay's Small circle technique?

  13. #13
    sihing, that's not unique to WC. the same can be said of grappling, thai boxing, etc. power and speed are attributes that help, no doubt, but the fighter with perfect timing, distancing, etc. has in addition to the physical attributes has the greater advantage.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  14. #14
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    Sevenstar,
    Like I said earlier all arts need some sort of skill to succeed, coordination, timing and such, but they don't apply it to the same degree as Wing Chun does. In my observations of BJJ, I did see allot of skill being applied, and the JKD arts also concentrate more on skill based concepts and techniques. Thai Boxers, yeah to a degree, but lets be honest, the toughest and fastest guy will win, hittin trees and toughening drills for shins does not constitute skill attributes. I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90's fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee....And yes he won the fight.

    A perfect example is when they introduce the fighters in any MMA event on pay per view or whatever. We see the fighters stats listing their weight, reach, age and most importantly STYLE. Oh we say, this will be a great match up, TYPE A style vs TYPE B style, what a contrast we say. Then the fight starts and both fighters look the same, sloppy boxing on the most part. Rarely do they apply what they have learned when stand up fighting. Vitor Belfort really put his combos together with great speed and straight attacks, similar to WC, those attacks blew people away for awhile. Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style....

    James

  15. #15
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    Is it not true that most Martial Arts/Fighting Arts are primarily based on Speed and Strength, including boxing.
    I disagree.

    Boxing is as skilful an art as any out there.

    If two Wc practitioners are equal in skill, the difference in speed and strength will usually win the day, unless luck plays a hand.. The same applies here as in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, ...

    Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style....
    I still see Sakuraba smoking him in Pride. and there have been better kickboxers in MMA than Belfort, who still calls himself a Jiu Jitsu fighter. and a lot of Belfort's game is conditioning, same as for any athlete.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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