Training to old age

[sihing]

Originally posted by anerlich
I disagree.
Boxing is as skilful an art as any out there.
If two Wc practitioners are equal in skill, the difference in speed and strength will usually win the day, unless luck plays a hand.. The same applies here as in boxing, wrestling, BJJ, ...

Boxing is yes a "Sweet Science" but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing "skills" to which we all know today the result. Whereas Ali was a more "Skilled" based boxer, he lasted much longer than both of these fighters and had more wars than both. Now considered the best of all time by most. Yes, he did need conditioning just for the fact that he was competing professionally and with other conditioned athletes.

I agree, with two equally skilled WC practitioners the one with either the speed or strength advantage will usually win, this is about the only time you have to worry about the other guys
speed and strength...

James

[anerlich]

I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90's fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee....And yes he won the fight.

I attended Cunningham's fight against Sakad Petchindee (sp) in '91. He was an MT champ. Is that the fight you are talking about?

I've always admired Sugarfoot, and he won convincingly ... though it was well known at the time that the MT guy had a lot of problems meeting weight, not that means much.

Oh yeah, Pete C didn't do WC either ... what a loser huh .. if he had he could still be fighting now, couldn't he!

Though Rick Spain fought an exhibition match will Bill Wallace at the same event and knocked Bill over ... ABSOLUTE PROOF that WC ROOLZ

[sihing]

Anerlich,
I can't recall exactly who Pete was fighting, it was on TSN, the national sports channel here in Canada and I just happened to catch it on TV. I'm not even sure where the fight was taking place from.

I met Bill Wallace once in Thunder Bay Ontario, back in 94 or 95'(I'm loosy with dates), he was doing a seminar there and a kickboxing exibition on the Saturday night, he fought a 3 rounder with the local champ to which he demolished. I didn't spar with him but we were doing a demo there and one of my students was photographing everything for the seminar host and I got a shot of the two of us doing the splits, nose to nose. Right when the picture was taken, at that moment, Bill put his hands around my butt and pulled it in tight, lol, it looks like we are hugging one another in that picture....He's a funny guy.

James

[Vajramusti]

Sihing sez:Boxing is yes a "Sweet Science" but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing "skills" to which we all know today the result.
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Considerable over simplification - above- IMO.Re.- Power and speed-
many different kinds of power and speed exist in activities. Roy Jones has power too (several one punch knockouts) and Tyson has speed- his outside to inside uppercuts have plenty of speed
and he one of the few who can double hook with his power hand..

Specifics of conditioning matter. Jones has been moving up and down in weight-pluses and minuses in doing that. Tyson (trains here in Phoenix a lot) got "in shape" for his last fight- but prior to that he was uneven in his conditioning commitments.

"Tried to rely..."? You usually have to rely on your skills.Not just an option. In additioning to conditioning- boxing is considerably a "mental" game though some underducated(formal schooling) boxers can at times sound inarticulate.

Strategy mattered in the last Jones and Tyson fights. Jones' opponent had decided from the start to play an intense and persistent close up inside game...denying Jones room.. The Tyson opponent after surviving Tyson's initial power and knowing Tyson's tiring rate-
decided to mix it close up- and was leaning on Tysonas uch as possible tiring T out fast. Then at the end Tyson when going down twisted his knee
in the end game.

And again-not to forget-the opponents have something to say about what Jones and Tyson did or didnt do.

In addition to the nature of the opposition-The mixes that one brings to the table matters- that includes both strategy and tactics in additioning to the right conditioning and power and speed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Thai Boxers, yeah to a degree, but lets be honest, the toughest and fastest guy will win

No, the toughest guy with the greater skill. All thai boxers train to be tough and fast - it's part of the training. The advantage is skill level.

hittin trees and toughening drills for shins does not constitute skill attributes. I remember watching Peter Cunningham back in the early 90's fighting a Champion Thai Boxer, and he outclassed him big time when it came to footwork and putting combinations together and such, more skill needed there than kicking a knee....And yes he won the fight.

Happens all the time. I've seen several TMA who outclass their opponents skill wise get stomped in streetfights. It's just one of those things that have no guarantee.

Then the fight starts and both fighters look the same, sloppy boxing on the most part. Rarely do they apply what they have learned when stand up fighting.

most of the guys are grapplers who have little striking training. Naturally the striking looks sloppy. Watch the guys who are trained strikers - lidell, cro cop, sak, in the old days, maurice smith... these guys show good striking skills.

Vitor Belfort really put his combos together with great speed and straight attacks, similar to WC, those attacks blew people away for awhile. Just imagine if he learned WC and incorporated that to his style....

not similar to WC, similar to boxing. had he trained in WC, he woulda been the same way. He put his techniques together like that because he was a competitve boxer. He actually thought about going pro. IMO though, he's a great mma but would've gotten eaten alive as a boxer.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
[B]Boxing is yes a "Sweet Science" but is power based and speed based, Roy Jones JR is a perfect example of speed based and Tyson is the example of Power based. Both of these athletes had natural attributes in these areas, and trained them to the optimum. Once both of these fighters realized that there natural athleticism would not keep them on the top(Both fighters have recently realized this) they tried to rely on their boxing "skills" to which we all know today the result.

sure - in a competitive venue with other guys - younger guys who are training just as hard, if not harder. Here's the question though - with your current training and skill level, can YOU beat either of them?

[sihing]

Sevenstar,
The question never was could I BEAT them...I'm not a competitive fighter and I've stated many times on this forum what I consider my "Fighting" level to be, my attribute lies in self-defense, and in my mind there is a difference between the two. I never began my training or continued to do so to become a prized fighter, but if either Roy Jones or Mike Tyson was going to hurt anyone in my family or loved ones then I wouldn't really care about what they did in their pasts, although I would use every dirty trick in the book to defeat them. Boxing wise I would get destroyed quickly by these two "PROFESSIONALS" in the ring. Notice the word professional...

Vajramusti,
It’s well known why Tyson was so successful. In the beginning of his career they put him against people that they knew he could defeat, to build his confidence. The outcome was by the time he stepped into the ring for the Heavy Weight Championship of the World, his opponent was psyched out by his renowned punching power, but I will admit I was impressed by his head movement and ability to put together his combinations, and yes for a heavyweight he did have speed, but not Ali speed per say. After a time at the top his c0ckiness got to him and he decided to start taking people lightly, therefore his training regimen decreased in intensity and the result was he didn't have the tools he needed to stay on top. Going to jail didn't help either. After that and his original trainer Gus D'Amato dying, he was never the same fighter, he had power, and probably always will, its natural for him, but his skills as a good boxer are gone...

As for Roy Jones JR, people would criticise him for his unorthodox boxing methods but his natural abilities got him by, and his incredible speed help tremendously too. The fighters he fought would be more worried about getting hit 5X in a second than their own strategies so they were never able to pull it off, I too would be worried if I was in the ring with him, loll. After his first defeat, as always, the mystic of him being unbeatable was gone and the fighters had more confidence with him. He's been knocked out twice now in the last year, coincidence or ???.

My whole point of using these two athletes was to show two examples of people most of us know and recognize. It's undeniable that if these fighters fought for a lifetime that their individual strategies would change due to their natural physical attributes failing them as they aged. This does not mean that they wouldn't be able to fight. If you train in anything for a prolonged period of time (like years) then you will have the ability to use it to some degree for sure, but not at the pro level that these guys are used to. Wing Chun, at least to me is much different. And I use myself as a example, I don't train nearly as much as I used to but my skill in the art is higher than it was when I received my instructors certificate years ago. How do I know this? From others observations and my own, I can see the improvement in everything. Yes my stamina is not the same, but my senses are keener and the speed of my movement is faster and more precise, and most importantly I am wiser in the art and more experienced with it in my body, therefore I move with more efficiency and effectiveness.

Allot of the reason why I believe in this so much, besides my own experiences in Wing Chun, is what I was told by my Sifu all my years of training. Sifu has gone through the training like a mad man syndrome much more than I. Without bragging about Sifu's abilities and training, I will say that he basically took what the best of the best in the MA/Fighting arts were doing in that era and doubled all of it, meaning 12 to 14hr training days, for years at a time. After doing this and sustaining some minor injuries and exposure/training in the WC system, both WSL and Cheung versions, he realized that one does not necessarily need ultra strength and speed to fight effectively, and that ultimately the brain is the perfect weapon if it wants to be.


James

[Vajramusti]

Interjected comments in brackets on parts of sihings post:

Vajramusti,
It’s well known why Tyson was so successful. In the beginning of his career they put him against people that they knew he could defeat, to build his confidence.
((Not peculiar to Tyson's case. All good managers do that. But not all are successful.))

The outcome was by the time he stepped into the ring for the Heavy Weight Championship of the World, his opponent was psyched out by his renowned punching power,

((Ernie Shavers was/is pne of the hardest hitters ever. He never became the undisputed champion))

but I will admit I was impressed by his head movement and ability to put together his combinations, and yes for a heavyweight he did have speed, but not Ali speed per say.

((I have nothing but admiration for Ali- but Tyson was no slouch on speed. Because of his muscular appaearnce- it is easy to underestimate his speed. He wasa fairly short armed heavyweight- but his speed was deceptive ))

After a time at the top his c0ckiness got to him and he decided to start taking people lightly, therefore his training regimen decreased in intensity and the result was he didn't have the tools he needed to stay on top.

((In part. He was/ is a small heavyweight. Size matters(more so in boxing and wrestling)- Buster Douglas, Lennox Lewis- towered over him.))

Going to jail didn't help either.

((he is hardlya model human being- but neither is/was Mayorga, Mayweather, Corrales, Duran, Graziano etc. Diogenes would have a difficult night with his lamp looking for moral greatness in competitive professional or quasi professional sports.))

After that and his original trainer Gus D'Amato dying, he was never the same fighter, he had power, and probably always will, its natural for him, but his skills as a good boxer are gone...

((Not just DAmato- he walked away from kevin Rooney, Teddy Atlas- and fell for cronies. Plus- a key is- his legs are gone and in boxing dem are important))

As for Roy Jones JR, people would criticise him for his unorthodox boxing methods but his natural abilities got him by,

((What? Every top notch boxer has his unique approach. You dont get to the top witha cookie cutter. Not just natural abilities- Jones is a very smart boxer. Moving his weight--- welter, middle, light heavy, heavy then back down can cause some problems.
But credit is due to his two winning opponents. Styles make differences. Tarver is a southpaw- Jones has had pproblems with southpaws and his last opponent crowded him on the inside
incessabtly and
trained for it. Jones should retire- not because he is over the hill- but to save his head for the future. He has enough money.
BTW his record is better than the MMA folks people talk about Sakuraba, Coleman, Smith- fame is fleeting))

My whole point of using these two athletes was to show two examples of people most of us know and recognize. It's undeniable that if these fighters fought for a lifetime that their individual strategies would change due to their natural physical attributes failing them as they aged. This does not mean that they wouldn't be able to fight. If you train in anything for a prolonged period of time (like years) then you will have the ability to use it to some degree for sure, but not at the pro level that these guys are used to. Wing Chun, at least to me is much different. And I use myself as a example, I don't train nearly as much as I used to but my skill in the art is higher than it was when I received my instructors certificate years ago. How do I know this? From others observations and my own, I can see the improvement in everything. Yes my stamina is not the same, but my senses are keener and the speed of my movement is faster and more precise, and most importantly I am wiser in the art and more experienced with it in my body, therefore I move with more efficiency and effectiveness.

((Smart people adjust to the seasons in any activity. But I agree with you that the wing chun learning curve is a long one- it starts slower than some sports- but the benfits last longer.))

Allot of the reason why I believe in this so much, besides my own experiences in Wing Chun, is what I was told by my Sifu all my years of training. Sifu has gone through the training like a mad man syndrome much more than I. Without bragging about Sifu's abilities and training, I will say that he basically took what the best of the best in the MA/Fighting arts were doing in that era and doubled all of it, meaning 12 to 14hr training days, for years at a time. After doing this and sustaining some minor injuries and exposure/training in the WC system, both WSL and Cheung versions, he realized that one does not necessarily need ultra strength and speed to fight effectively, and that ultimately the brain is the perfect weapon if it wants to be.

(( I will stay away from sifu sez....))

[sihing]

Thanks for your responses Joy, except I take issue with the Sifu seez stuff. Listen, if you are looking to achieve a goal in any endeavor then a mentor is one of the first things you should do to gain advice and guidance. Even the Bible talks about finding the wise one in the community to learn and get advice from. Sifu has been this for me exactly and more. At present date he has approximately 27yrs more experience than I in the MA, so why would I not listen to what the man has to say and take it as a form of truth? They say experience is the best teacher, wrong! Someone else's experience is the best teacher first because he/she can show you how to reach the goal faster, and avoid the mistakes along the way, then after you gain some experience yourself you can combine the two. I have no problem saying SIFU SAYS, on this forum or to anyone listening else where.

James

[anerlich]

he realized that one does not necessarily need ultra strength and speed to fight effectively, and that ultimately the brain is the perfect weapon if it wants to be.

Well that's great, but I think older guys in a wide range of martial arts, like Helio Gracie (not many WC greats of the past lived to his age), the 70 year old wrestler I talked about earlier, Gogen Yamaguchi, etc. would have told you the same thing about their arts. You seem intent on denying the possibility that any art other than WC has the attributes that you discuss, when it just ain't true.

My first instructor, David Crook, who's been around longer than Brain Lewadny and by the sound of things trained just as hard, was the son of a British Army boxing champion. His Dad got mugged in London aged 80+ by two guys in their twenties, one of whom he KO'd and the other he chased into a public toilet where the would be mugger locked himself in a cubicle and refused to come out until the cops arrived. If you think old boxers can't fight, and if you think boxers don't understand good body mechanics and efficiency, you are dead wrong.

Without bragging about Sifu's abilities and training

Yeah, right, you showed amazing self restraint

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Sevenstar,
The question never was could I BEAT them...I'm not a competitive fighter and I've stated many times on this forum what I consider my "Fighting" level to be, my attribute lies in self-defense, and in my mind there is a difference between the two. I never began my training or continued to do so to become a prized fighter, but if either Roy Jones or Mike Tyson was going to hurt anyone in my family or loved ones then I wouldn't really care about what they did in their pasts, although I would use every dirty trick in the book to defeat them. Boxing wise I would get destroyed quickly by these two "PROFESSIONALS" in the ring. Notice the word professional...

which is my point. People are saying that they can't box as a form of exercise and/or self defense into X age and basing on the fact that their competitive career may *or may not* be over by x age. I see a flaw there.

[Vajramusti]

Sihing sez:Thanks for your responses Joy, except I take issue with the Sifu seez stuff. Listen, if you are looking to achieve a goal in any endeavor then a mentor is one of the first things you should do to gain advice and guidance. Even the Bible talks about finding the wise one in the community to learn and get advice from. Sifu has been this for me exactly and more.

(( I have nothing but respect for my sifu in a very traditional sense.
But in conversations on forums, or apllications and understanding
I am on my own. I dont hold anyone responsible for my interpretations or misinterpretaions. Standard author's not uncommon caveat. I dont see what the issue is- difference in perspectives perhaps?)))






Seven Star sez:
People are saying that they can't box as a form of exercise and/or self defense into X age and basing on the fact that their competitive career may *or may not* be over by x age. I see a flaw there

((People? Not me. Three points-
1. If no damge to reflexes and mind and health takes place- there
can be effective carry over after comtetitive days for some.
For many others there is a sad decline- if they have competed a lot.

2. Real sports competition and learning wing chun and how to use it dont necessarily involve the same goals as Ray has pointed out several times.

3. IMO- I respect boxers and grapplers- but (note) in my opinion the depth and effective shelf life of well taught and learned wing chun is greater.
Views can vary. Opinions on forums are free.)))

[Ernie]

Wow
This thread is very entertaining

Lets see we have people discussing boxing and the longevity of boxing ,
Yet they don’t box [ with the exception of Joy ]
They have not trained with or like boxers for any given time
They have not stepped foot in a boxing gym and seen how many old boxers are still training to just stay in shape
Funny opinions with no first hand facts


I know a lot of 50 plus boxers that never had big carriers or are professionals in other carriers and boxing/kickboxing is just a hobby or outlet .
They’re in great shape and tough as nails ,
They’re not walking around broken or with spit catchers on because of brain damage [ got to love how people jump to extreme conclusions when it suits there needs ]
How do they do this you might ask
Simple they tune down the hard core training and work lighter and smarter , if you every get brave enough to walk into a pro boxing gym you will see the professional fighters don’t go all hard core either they hit light and work on timing being relaxed improving there ‘’ dare I say it ‘’ *skill*
These guys are like thoroughbreds they can’t afforded injuries there lives depend on being in good shape , sure when there getting ready for a fight and in the fight they go all out , but so would you.

But the prep work , the training can be done for as long as you like ,
Boxing is not pounding a heavy bag with all your might then jumping in a ring and getting your head knocked around , sure it can be for the silly people out there .
But there is a lot more non-hard impact training focus mitts , road work , speed and double end bag , light sparring to cultivate timing , proper mechanics to cultivate power release , sensitivity to learn to roll shots , the list goes on and on


I see more Doctors , lawyers , business men and woman 40 and up doing boxing and kick boxing then in any martial art , and they look and feel great , the gym I trained at for 5 years was based on executive boxing and kick boxing , not tae bo junk but full boxing set up , ring time bag work solo training and sparring , they hired professional fighters to come in and train people , sure it was pricey but man that place was and still is packed

Even the Thai camp that was there was packed with 40,50 and 60 year olds , hell they were the only ones that could afforded it !
Just to show an example of interest they also offered tai chi and yoga

The tai chi class was dead

The yoga and Pilates classes did well

So this little argument about training when you’re old and there actually being lines drawn in the sand just bust me up .


The only thing you need to do is train smart , be honest with what you can or can not do and respect your body

you can train in what ever you like maintain health and skill for your entire life

[Vajramusti]

Ernie sez:

The only thing you need to do is train smart , be honest with what you can or can not do and respect your body

you can train in what ever you like maintain health and skill for your entire life
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I agree with that-
but my personal choice is wing chun- you discover new tool boxes all the time. Wing chun is not limited to a single tool box.

[Ernie]

Joy I agree

but this is also true with boxing , kick boxing what ever , the more you do something the better at it you get and the more you learn about it ,

sure I’m with you on the wing Chun idea

but this could be any art

that's why I find it funny when people use different training systems to try and compare and knock one over the other if they have not spent the time learning all there is about the other

I have ran into enough people from different arts that are just as excited about what they do and are learning and evolving all the time

personally I have enough trust in myself and what I do that there is no need to compare or try and tear down some one else’s art
to make mine look better

that being said I am hard on my fellow wing Chun people , because they seem to drift so far from reality

this thread for example