Used martial arts in real situation !

[Reggie1]

Kung Lek,
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the actions in the story, but I am curious--If you would have seen a story posted on here about a security guard killed by a knife from a credit card fraud 'bandit', how would that make you feel? Which is better? Use of unjustified force to bring down a known criminal, or loss of life because of the need to not use force unless provoked? Don't forget that this same thief was convicted of assaulting an officer. We'll never know, but that knee to the face could have saved that security guard's life.

[David Jamieson]

reggie1

you are tossing around a hypothetical situation in which you have set all the bait up to be answered in favour of your own view.

I ain't biting. Point is, that is not what happened.

Here is what I do know. Security guards are not Police. They have no place in doing anything other than surveilling the perp and calling the police in to make the arrest.

It is not the place of regular citizens such as security guards to run down fraud perps or petty thieves. It is their place to follow them, track them and call the cops.

The problem lies in teh sense of bravado. And the security guards should not be endangering himself by doing what was done. THat is what Police are for and that is what Police are trained to do.

capice?

[Fred Sanford]

Here is what I do know. Security guards are not Police. They have no place in doing anything other than surveilling the perp and calling the police in to make the arrest.

That all depends, maybe canada is different. As a security guard you are paid to protect the interests of your employer. Which can mean arresting people for violations of the law which occur on the employers property.

[David Jamieson]

As a security guard you are paid to protect the interests of your employer. Which can mean arresting people for violations of the law which occur on the employers property.

since when do employers have the right to have private aremies or private police forces.

I think what you are speaking of is misconstruing the purpose of having a human presence.

Having a security guard serves as a deterence. The training for so many of them is atrocious and really, they have no place making arrests or playing policeman.

If they want to be policemen, then go be policemen. But don't tell me that security guards have the same function as police. they don't and they aren't anywhere near as properly equipped to handle the tasks associated with making arrests.

herein lies the problem. Security guards are not enforcement, they are deterent.

Now, when a security guard makes an arrest, it is not a bonafide collar. THere is no record or arrest etc etc. And that's why they are not recognized at the same level as authentic and genuine police force members.

Their arrests are basically citizens arrests and really, there are way too many times that they stepo over the line and risk their own lives and the lives of others around them because of some need to be a hero. And for what? 500 bucks on an already cancelled credit card? Gimme a break. And don't even try to cast a square badge in the same light as a real LEO.

It's like comparing a cub scout's responsibilities and duties to that of an army ranger.

the security guard is not accountable. And so, there is the next problem. Byt doing this act, the security guard has in effect risked becoming a criminal himself because he did not stick to his duties which are to deter through presence, monitor, surviel and inform.

[David Jamieson]

I would also add.

Like any citizen, doing the right thing is doing the right thing. It is imperative that we adhere to the social construct and function within it as best as we can to fit the ideal model.

If we observe someone doing harm to another, then we should step in. But as far as theft, or property crimes are concerned, I think that is a matter for the police and the courts.

I don't think anyones life can be equated to propety value.
BUt had the scenario been that the guy had walked into the store and forcebly tried to rob the cashier, and commited an assault than I would say it would be everyones responsibility to step up and hold the guy. Not to beat him down.

If citizens acted like this then there would be a whole lot less of these types of violent crimes let me tell you.

But a property crime is not worth the risk and frankly it's irresponsible to make a mountain out of a molehill such as this.

[SifuAbel]

Moral of the story:

Kung lek should never try credit card fraud in a U.S. store.

[David Jamieson]

ha ha abel.

the moral of the story is that people clearly need to understand morality.

there is nothing righteous about bravado and machismo and the ramifications of these actions are all too often negative.

[SifuAbel]

Ok then, can I "borrow" your credit card?

Sorry, we don't have much of a "do me" mentality here.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Actually, KL, in the U.s. we have not surrendered all our rights to the state. Anybody can effect an arrest of sorts in certain conditions. And security gaurds (properly trained and certified) can and do arrest or detain people for removal by the police.

I imagine your blocking skills are exceptional since your knee jerks so often...

[Reggie1]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
there is nothing righteous about bravado and machismo and the ramifications of these actions are all too often negative.

Well said. Actually, Kung Lek, you assume a little too much in my post. I'm not trying to bait you into some kind of wrong position in this. You have an opinion on this matter just like everybody else, and there really isn't a clear cut right or wrong. Since you've never been in the situation before, us arguing about what is right or wrong is a moot point. We'll never know because we weren't there. I was just curious as to how you felt about that type of situation, not trying to bait you into an argument. If you want to PM me with your honest answer, that's fine. I just want to know.

[David Jamieson]

Since you've never been in the situation before, us arguing about what is right or wrong is a moot point.

well, you don't actually know what kindof situations i've been in now do you?

ms2- we have citizens arrest here in canada too.

for the record I have had experiences wherein a situation arose that demanded swift action.

For instance in one of em, My friend and I were sitting in a bar downtown in wiinipeg called the royal albert. Anyway, we are across from the door. Two ladies sit down at the table next to the door and get up to go to the dancefloor. Foolishly, one of tehm leaves her purse at the table.

the area is not so good, and sure enough some petty thief pops in the door sees the purse unguarded, nicks it and runs.

I look at my friend, he looks at me and I say, "should we go after him"? He says "sure" so we bolt out the door after the guy.

We catch up to the guy, I shout "freeze it" lol, and he does! I run up to him and grab him by the scruff of the neck. we had gotten him around back of the place and were in the parking lot.

so I have the guy by his shirt collar, I tell him to hand over the purse. He indicates it's in the laneway. We take him to it and there it is. We pick it up. By this time the girl has shown up.

She was very thankful, she had all her id and important papers in the purse.

So, without inflicting any violence on the guy beyond keeping him from running away while we got the purse, we returned the purse to its rightful owner.

and then we let the guy go unharmed and told him to think about it before pulling it again.

so, is that using my kungfu too? You bet it is.

I have several other tales of the like.

You can work things out peacfully. There is a lot to be said for approach and awareness.

Maybe we're just more civilized in canada? I don't know. I sure wouldn't want to be caught up in a case of mistaken identity in a place where the real knee jerks are the ones who are prepared to inflict violence for petty crime.

[Reggie1]

Fair enough. Just playing a little devil's advocate, that's all.

[cerebus]

Kung Lek, I'm not saying it's right to use excessive force. What I AM saying is that you are going by some "perfect world" scenario that you've played out in your mind. Ideally, yes, security, police, etc will ONLY use as much force as necessary. In real life however it's not that clear-cut. Many factors can affect what happens, adrenalin, fear, potential for weapons, etc.

Honestly, with those who have been in violent situations often, I think it would be generally agreed that around 9 times out of 10 things do NOT go as one might later wish they had. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback (even to oneself after the fact) and say "Oh he (or I) shoulda done this or that or whatever". The facts of the matter are that the criminal was arrested with NO serious harm being done to anyone involved. And THAT, sir, is a successful arrest.

PS: ego, you obviously don't know sh!t about me or what I'm doing. The security job is just an easy way to pay the bills while I continue training toward instructorship in the arts I'm currently studying (such a thing would never even have crossed your mind, now would it?).

[rogue]

since when do employers have the right to have private aremies or private police forces.

Pretty common down here. We have an office park that retains it's own deputized armed security force. Most major companies retain armed security forces, Microsoft and Disney both have excellent security forces .

[David Jamieson]

you are going by some "perfect world" scenario that you've played out in your mind

no cerebus, i have plenty of real life situations that i can bring to mind wherein problems that could have been potentially violent have turned due to my approach of not getting panicky, not getting afraid and by looking at things for the way they are.

Of course things go awry, but that is no reason to go off on someone for a minor crime. I've taken some serious lickings and I've witnessed the same happen to others up close and personal.

Training in martial arts will bring some of you to a point where you do not over adrenilyze and are able to hold a clear and cognizant outlook of the situation at hand. Or this can come from life experience. With a bit of both, one can bring a peaceful end to a potentially bad situation in my opinion.

I began with my coarse remark mainly because kneeing someone in the face when they are down is not in my opinion a "use" of martial arts or martial arts training. In my opinion, it was excessive and also was admittedly done from fear. This is something that can seriously interfere with the dudes chosen profession and can actually get him into a whole mess of trouble.

so, I don't agree with the pre-emptive strike approach. I see it as dastardly in intent and in action.

Rogue-

I am aware of private security, it really isn't much different here. Except that only military, prison guards, federal, provincial,civic police and brinks cars drivers can have guns.

Brinks guys protect cash and are the only ones who are not actual policemen.

I realize that the firearms laws are different in the states and that in turn necessitates armed security. But private armies are different from an armed security force. I would imagine that the armed security peeps are probably a tad different than your average walmart loss prevention employee though. Wouldn't you?