Wing Chun Roots

[joedoe]

Hi, I am not trying to start any arguments about lineage or anything, but I was wondering about the history and roots of Wing Chun. The main reason I asked is that I was of the understanding that Wing Chun is mostly derived from the white crane and snake arts, and someone has postulated otherwise. Am I incorrect, or is this another can of worms?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by joedoe
Hi, I am not trying to start any arguments about lineage or anything,

but I was wondering about the history and roots of Wing Chun.


The main reason I asked is that I was of the understanding that Wing Chun is mostly derived from the white crane and snake arts, and someone has postulated otherwise.


Am I incorrect, or is this another can of worms?

Nope, not another can of worm.

This is a democratic world that people should be able to discuss with openess and present thier case with evidents.

If the world is not evolved to the democratic world yet. then, hopefully somedays the world will be like that.

[planetwc]

worms, dude, nothing but worms.

[joedoe]

So I should delete the thread before it causes more trouble?

Seriously though, am I wrong in my understanding of snake and crane being the base arts of WC?

[sihing]

Well depending on who you ask....In my opinion Wing Chun was not based on the snake and crane arts. It was based on logic and the science of movement, pure and simple. The monks developed new theories and concepts for developing superior fighters in 1/3 of the time. Some of these theories include, theory of interruption, close range fighting, using two arms at once, contact reflexes, straight line movement instead of round on attacks, elbow/knee watching, independent movement of the arms, etc... Each monk/elder was an experienced master of their own respective systems, each was well versed in the physics of movement and vital areas of the body. They developed these concepts and principals so that average people would be able to handle skilled fighters in less training time and be able to maintain these skills with less physical effort.

James

[joedoe]

Interesting thoughts. I guess you could look at it that way, but then again nothing happens in a vacuum. Surely there might have been other arts (not necessarily white crane or snake) that influenced the development of Wing Chun?

[Toby]

What's your postulation joedoe? I've heard of distinct similarities between some WC and an internal style. At the end of the day, who really knows?

[yellowpikachu]

Thus, I have heard.

There are two types of arts influencing Red boat in the 1850.

One is the White Crane of Fujian.
The other one is the Hakka martial art.



There was the
White Crane of Fujian / Emei's art combination which become Siu Lien Tau system; and Wing Chun was founded. Thus, Siu Lien Tau is the core art of Wing Chun. Crane and Snake combination description are based on the above art. White Crane of Fujian was created in 1650 era. While Emei's written record shown a 700 years history since creation in the Song Dynasty.



White Crane from fujian is the Crane component. Such as the center line principle, the Man sau, the five elements potential which are the tan, pak, fook...., and contribute potential (energy) components, the two hands neutral and attack in the same instant...

The emei 12 zhuang contribute the snake body which in todays term means Awareness and adaptive... chi sau .. using silence to subdue the action.. Come accept, goes let it be.. and the concept of shooting out force instead of streching out to punch.. adaptive momentum... and the YJKYM/ 8 legs methods.

Since the emei 12 zhuang directly related to the Buddhist cultivation. The concept of True emptiness wonderful existance which can be expressed in come accept, goes let it be, or in today's term --- living in Now; just do it, Dont think, think less, not going anywhere, not expect anything, not trying to be anybody....etc; or provide a training to get into alpha brainwave ..... were integrated into SLT via this path.
physically, Spine activation training also was from this path.


Thus, SLT's force issuing is different with White Crane and Wing Chun is not Totally White Crane because the enginee of power generation is different.



On the other hand, in the same period of time, The
Hakka art which was practicing Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing, a "harder "style or more Shao Lin "look", (but not practising Siu Lien Tau as the Core ) contribute to develop other martial arts in the Red Boat.





The Red boat opera such as the actor such as Lee Man Mau and playing ladies role was practicing Wing Chun which is Fujian White Crane Based.



Later,

Due to the co-exist of different arts on board of the Red Boat, thus, there was mutual influence .


In the pre/ at Leung Jan time, legend said it, there is only one long set of art in Wing Chun kuen namely The Siu Lien Tau. Then, later, this set was localized Evolved as usual as the art grow.

at the era of Lee Man Mau lead the red boad uprising which is first uprising of the Chinese Opera Actors in the chinese history, and later turn into the Red Bandana movements, Wing Chun Kuen is further Evolved.



In addition, the hakka art which practiced the Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing doesnt by defaut related to Zen of Shao Lin. As one will see today that the Hakka martial art school still practicing Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing but they might not be Buddhist or Zen practitioners.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Toby
What's your postulation joedoe? I've heard of distinct similarities between some WC and an internal style. At the end of the day, who really knows?

I don't actually have a theory myself. I was of the understanding that there was a white crane and snake influence on Wing Chun, but then I also know there is a lot of debate over the history of the art.

I am just trying to clarify my understanding, however if it degrades into a lineage war I will delete the thread. My intention is not to stir up trouble, but to try and clarify my knowledge.

[YongChun]

Wang Kiu said that Wing Chun was just some good ideas from the Southern Chinese martial arts. He said Wing Chun was very similar to Preying Mantis in concept. His whole family trained in the Mantis arts but after seeing Wong Shun Leung's successes switched to Wing Chun and studied privately with Yip Man. It is Dr. Khoe's contention that Wing Chun is derived from the art of Hsing I. Those who train Hung style, Snake style and Crane style can see many elements of their styles within Wing Chun with also straight line attacks, attack and defense at the same time, sticking, upright stances, mobile footwork and all of the Wing Chun shapes but on top of that a lot more. Wing Chun wasn't thought up in a vacuum so it is very likely that ideas were borrowed from other arts and some of those arts were animal styles.

The story of Yim Wing Chun, Ng Mui, the snake and the crane were probably mostly marketing stories. Wang Kiu said that Lee Man and Yip Man made up those stories in the beginning to draw interest to the art. There is no solid evidence to back up any one version of anyone's story from what I have seen. Chinese history is full of made up stories.

Perhaps Wing Chun didn't originate from snake and crane fighting but there is still a lot of overlap between these systems depending on how you look at it. My Hung style teacher knew little of Wing Chun but when he first saw it, could relate to all of it right away as small circle Kung Fu which the upper levels of Hung style practitioners also knew.

I think Rene Ritchie , Robert Chu and Leung Ting have done some good research into all these matters. Animal fighting doesn't mean to mimc animals and to quack like a duck, the reason people look down on animal styles. Instead attributes of animals can be used for a source of ideas. For example to have your arms feel rubbery like snake like is a good quality. To have the ferocity of a Tiger is also a good quality. To have characteristics of water, of an Oak tree and of a Willow tree is also good. It doesn't mean we try to look like a tree. All these things just give ideas for fighting. Ideas can come from any kind of observation in nature. Then we just humanize these ideas to produce something practical.

[KPM]

I once saw some video footage of a guy doing a form from fukien white crane... I think it may have been the old "eating crane" style. My first thought was..."that's some strange looking Wing Chun. What kind of Wing Chun is it?" It was similar enough that I assumed it was a family of WCK that I had never seen...maybe Yik Kam or something else. I was surprised when I was told it was white crane. I've never seen emei, but have been told it is the root art of styles like Hsing I. I have seen Hsing I, and it does seem to have many similarities to WCK. So Hendrik's version of Wing Chun history makes sense to me. Other's mileage may vary. :-)

Keith

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Hendrick

Interesting stuff. This is the clearest articulation of your theory I have seen to date.

A couple of questions

1) Am I right in saying you came across emei 12 zhuang after learning Wing chun and found the Kuen Kuit in both arts to be almost Identical, and Emei being the older art you posited that Wing chun was derived from it?

2) Is the Hakka martial art 'Weng Chun'. If not how do you account for its origins?

Thanks

Nick

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer


A couple of questions

1) Am I right in saying you came across emei 12 zhuang after learning Wing chun and found the Kuen Kuit in both arts to be almost Identical, and Emei being the older art you posited that Wing chun was derived from it?

2) Is the Hakka martial art 'Weng Chun'. If not how do you account for its origins?

1, I found Emei 12 Zhuang by accident similar to how I found Shang Hai's connection. while I am studying different Chinese martial arts writting records.

True, Emei is much older even compare with White Crane of Fujian or the Ming Dynasty Chinese Martial art evolution/revolution. the emei 12 zhuang is from Song Dynasty.

Emei 12 Zhuang's writting record can provide lots of very specific insight about why SLT was designed the way it is including the meaning of YJKYM and how is its handling.


2, I wont comment on other art beside Wing Chun. however,
here is a clip of what the Hakka martial art is about by the Hakka. This clip is from Taiwan, this respected art had been trained and produced Champions both in Taiwan and Mainland China's tournament.

One can see the Localization Evolution of the art due to Taiwan has a good size of TKD and judo environment, and also the classical traditional sets (non weapon, weapon) here. and indeed within the clip it talkes openly about Localization Evolution.

Take a look at its classical traditional sets and see do you see Wing Chun here or other arts from the red boat?

you will see how a Hakka Based art are looks like based on the Hakka Grandmaster via the Taiwan TV. Taiwan has a good number of Hakka Population and the Hakka People are very respectable to protect, to keep , and grow thier trandition.


mms://web.hakka.gov.tw/goto-29.asf








On the other hand,

what I have observed are

The term "shao Lin" doesnt mean much when most of the southern CMA has a pre-fix of "shao Lin".

The existance of Tan Sau Ng does mean much because we know today there are fujian art, Hakka art, Emei art ... ect on board of the Red Boat and why the heck some of the wing chun Kuen Kuit is written in Fujianese dialect and White Crane of Fujian alike or emei terms?

The red bandana also doesnt tell alots because the written history of china record about Lee Man-Mau and the secrete code of 1850's uprising was still preserved and parallel to the one found in Shang Hai..

Similarly, the term Bai Fut or praying to the buddha also doesnt tell much about ZEN or Shao Lin because Bai Fut beside of means praying to buddha. it mean matching toward's Fatsan city in 1850's uprising.

So, one has to be really carefull here when drawing conclusion.


My take in what happen in Red Boat is art, Wing Chun or other arts, all are respectable and should be treat as equal. they are not the same, not from the same roots. one cannot claim one to be older then the others. One cannot just mix the two and blending.

For example, the Yee Jing Jing training is very different compare with the Emei 12 zhuang training. Thus, different type of training produced different type of power generation methods and the set will be perform differently.

another example, if one mix art without an insight of the different, then, there will be a feeling of "something" is unusual.

Such as if one trying to make the harder art more soft. that create problem because the core/enginee doesnt support the system. It just "feel" different. Thus, one cannot mix TaiJi or HSing I into Wing Chun, one the surface it looks ok when one is doing one or two moves.

but then when one is doing a series of move there one can see it doesnt integrate into one. There is where people with insight in CMA "see though" what is happening or copied. Even with the same shape. one can do one move, two move, and continous on will shown the secret of the mix. unless one knows and have very solid insight into advance level, otherwise the integration will be having flaw. even with deep insight into the art, one can check the source from different dimentions such as jing....
one lost the spontaneouslity with those 'just mix". when one check the art in "living in Now". one just sees... cant be hide.

to the worst, sometimes both art lost the advantage in the mix because while mixing, Shape is the one which one pay attention the most.

Check into the White CRane from FUjian and take a look and compare with Wing Chun. one can see the similarity plus "something" is there. and the tasks are then to find out what is that "something" and certainly to find out does it works well with this type of integration?


So with the information and data we collect today. we can very likely pin point what is going on with first order accuratecy. so, there is no need of any type of arguement when checking into the data.

but then again, I present what I found but others believe and theory are respected equally.

[Vajramusti]

Two good fairly clear posts Hendrik- doesnt have to be a can of worms or involve personal attacks.... regarding those two posts in answering Joe Doe..

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

The 5 Grandmasters; Ng Mui was a Buddhist nun of the Sil Lum temple of Mountain Shung of Honan. Style: Rat Step Ping Plum Flower Fists. Fung Do-Duck, a Taoist, and an expert of the internal systems. He was from Mo-Dong, of the northern area. Bak Mei, founder of the White Eyebrow system. He was originally from Mountain Aw-Mei-Sze Chuan. Miao Hin. Famous for his Buddhist lifestyle, he was originally from Mountain Bai-Pai of Kweog-Si. Jee Seen, the founder of the Hung style. Jee Seen was also the founder of the Evergreen style. In fact most of the southern styles of Kung Fu today especially those of the Fu-Kien were either related to or influenced by Jee Seen. And he was also responsible for the introduction of the famous Sil Lim long pole techniques into the Wing Chun repertoire. All of these masters were apart of Shaolin temple. When the Manchurians learned the fighting way of Shaolin. That’s when they (five grand masters) took all of their systems and put them all together, and since the Manchu’s learned the long fist of Shaolin, the five grandmasters only used the short range system of Shaolin.
And there it is Wing Chun the system.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

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