Wing Chun Roots

[yellowpikachu]

If the 5 elderly story of Shao Lin is taken as real. if Chisim is real then Ng Mui has to be real. Otherwise, we are being "filtering" information selectively.

Then, as in the story,
It doesnt make sense that ChiSim created Wing Chun kuen which was created by his School Sister Ng Mui. They have different type of arts as the story of shao Lin describe.







In the history of Wing Chun kuen from various lineages, Ng Mui is either direct or indirectly related to Yim Wing Chun. and always connected with CRANE style.


Out side the Wing Chun history, across the southern Chinese Martial art styles,

Ng Mui was present as the 3rd or 4th generation student of Fujian White Crane art according to the Worldwide Fujian white crane big meeting years ago. and acknowlege that Wing Chun Kuen is an offspring of Fujian White CRane. This acknowlegement is rare that it endose the root of wing Chun with its 350 years old solid writing record history.


A good question is, will any Shao Lin temple in China, be it from North or Southen willing to endose the Monk such and such which mention in some lineage's history to be thier Track-able student of the temple; where the type of Kung fu, and Zen's attainment recorded (such as attainment of Satori or mind seal...). And endose that Wing Chun Kuen is an art from that temple and very specifically show the martial art DNA on who, why where, when, what.... from that temple?





(Note:

Fujian White Crane is a true 350years art with both Qing gorvenment writing record and well documented interfamily record. it is strong art that in every generation of White Crane they produce great fighter. in the never passed White Crane had produce champion fighter in China and it also produce a fighter who is draw with the Famous Yee Chuan greator, Wang Xiang Zhai.

Fujian White Crane contrasted to other southern martial arts system which has lots of claim but without any solid trace able record of the history and the interaction with the other martial art systems. )




BTW, Fujian White Crane has term that echo the Ng Mui's identity to relate to Fujian White Crane.

The term said
Sam (three) Dim (points) Ng (five) Miu (plum) Fa (flower)

or Three points five plum flower.







In summary,
the term "Ng Mui' does point to the Fujian white Crane.

as,
1, the three points five plum flower term
2, The Fujian White Crane's family endose the existance of somebody name "Ng Mui"
3, some Wing Chun Kuen kuit found in the Red boat era record clearly the classical term of Fujian White Crane.
4, Some Wing Chun Kuen kuit found in the red boat era was written in Fujianese.

3 and 4 also pointing to what is happing before 1850. we now can traced up to 1800 where White Crane of Fujian started a new Evolution where the Classical White Crane spin off into various crane lineage. we can also compare the Jing or power issuing before and after this evolution. and compare the SLT's techincal components with what happen in this era to see when is it very likely SLT was created. Before or after this fujian white crane evolution era.

For the present searching, SLT is very likely design or created before the evolution of the fujian white crane started around 1800.






Thus, the connection of Fujian White Crane with Wing Chun Kuen, be it from the view angle of 1, story of five elderly, 2, from technical DNA , or 3 from Lee Man Mau who was the leader of the Opera Uprising and the leader of the Red Bandana movement.

Wing Chun kuen and Fujian White Crane's is very solid that cannot be denied.


one of the mother components of Wing Chun Kuen is Fujian White Crane or Fu Jian Weng Chun White Crane kuen . WEng Chun is a place in Fujian not a Temple in this case.


Thus, the story WCK related with "NG Mui " (whatever is her/his real name) from the red boat is very solidly point to the direction of Fujian White Crane. be it the story from YKS, Yip Man, Cho On, or Koo Loo lineage, they are telling the truth about the mother component.

There is no reason for WCners to have doubt about the teaching of these ancestors above.

[yellowpikachu]

The search of emei connection starts with the history how the ancestors of Cho family or Yik Kam recorded in 1970. That is --- Ng Mui passed the white crane art to a person name Miu Shun and Miu Shun combine his own art with Ng Mui to develop a system called Siu Lin Tau. This system later passed to Yim Yee who was Wing Chun's father. Then passed on to Wing Chun ..... until the system further Localization Evolved grow into the Wing Chun Kuen in the Red Boat era.

Conincidently, the YKS lineage also share the story of Miu Hin. and the Koo Loo lineage adress that their art consist of emei's weapon's kuet.



From the above, there are two issues has to be look at.


1, why is it SLT doesnt use the classical Fujian White Crane's Sanchin stance as the based? eventhought, today if one uses the sanchin stance platform to practice SLT, one will feel comfortable and powerfull. Try it and see for yourself. instead of standing in YJKYM, stand in the sanchin stance.

2, what is the art of Miu shun?




These two questions lead to a direction of going west from Canton which is Kwan Xi and Sze Chuan --- emei.


it then also lead the understanding of SLT/SNT using the YJKYM instead of San Chin stance to develop a "softer" flow of Jing (power)


one of the name of game with the close body art is that what if one missed the first execution or the first short, it cant be a one short art isnt it? will it becomes a point of no return? That lead to the requirement of Full Arrow or Multi-dimentional resultant force structure. And that lead to why SLT/SNT is designed to have no kicks. that is due to it is a fajing art and fajing art has to based within the Full Arrow. Broken arrow cannot deliver for this type of power. the core of the art has to be well settle in the full arrow platform. that is the core teaching of SLT/SNT --familiar with your own spide web and what it is the potential.

That then also lead to why classical WingChun doesnt use high kicks --- because 1, always it has to keep in Full Allow, and 2, raising kick in broken arrow is subjected to take down which is a point of no return if somethings goes wrong in the first execution. That then lead to the sickle .... not a straight sword extended shao Lin alike of tan sau......


Then, on this path of searching traveling west, we got lucky. that is the reveal of the emei 12 zhuang Kuen kuit. which explain the reason of why things are the way they are.

BTW, Emei 12 zhuang, is also a solid written recorded art which can be traced and tracked to every details. a 700 years or so art. the White Cloud Zen master/buddhist monk's attaiment is recorded that he has advance Buddhism attaiment where he "saw" the Samanthabadra Boddhisatva in a vision .....



on the searching of the Red Boat Uprising and why it is called Wing Chun kuen we also get lucking which lead us to Shang Hai where across the filed we can see the big picture and the reason why it is named Wing Chun Kuen --- the martial art of the opera singer, in the process of evolution. we also knows who lead the red banana...... and compare note among different uprising qoute preserve in some wing chun lineages.



above is just a thesis. again, it needs to be taken as Thus, I have heard. and always respect other theoris exist on Wing Chun Kuen.

BTW.
IMHO, we need to look through and beyond the limb technics... and get into the momentum level, then later into the energy level.
and all of the things develop in the limb level will then extend into the momentum level, and then energy level.

it cant be that at limb level, momenum level, and energy level are three different kinds of art and train differently.

it has to be simple single art which can develop beyond a level and continous on the unlimited journey.

[yellowpikachu]

Aways a great song to listen to at mid night while further the searching into the root of Wing Chun Kuen.


yup,

The world we know fades away
But the truth of the root will stay.
that is the mission set before time.

we are going to find it in our generation.


----------------------



Theme of Crouching tiger hidden dragon



If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountains disappeared,
If the seas run dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes.
The world I know fades away
But you stay.

If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side.
The North star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes
Will burn there always


When the forest turns to jade,
And the stories that we've made
Dissolve away
One shining light will still remain.

When we shed our earthly skin,
When our real life begins,

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Savi
Wing Chun is not strictly a Short Range Art.

All Wing Chun shares the centerline concept. I understand that the Centerline concept (in math terms, the "axis of symmetry") is rooted in the concept of Tin Yan Dei which has existed long before the 1850's.

Whether or not Ng Mui existed is irrelevant, there is an implication of a Shaolin Connection, predating the 1850's.

Weng Chun which has the Tin Yan Dei Concept and is a Shaolin originated system, predates the Red Boats.

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, a name only known to secret societies (the private sector) at the time, has Tin Yan Dei Concept and predates the Red Boats.

HFYWC and CSWC share extensive Kiu Sau methods.

HFYWC and CSWC share extensive Chan methods and teachings and traditions.

HFYWC and CSWC share the Tin Yan Dei concept which expands beyond the centerline concept.

HFYWC and CSWC share the 1/2 Point Concept.

The Red Boats stems from the Red Opera Company of 140-150 years prior to the 1850's, founded by a person by the name of Cheung Ng; a person who is in the Hung Fa Yi geneology.

Cheung Ng is recognized as the creator of the 18 plays of Cantonese Opera, made famous by the Red Opera.

Cheung Ng was a disciple of Yat Chan Daai Si, a high level monk of the northern Shaolin Temple who emmigrated to the southern Shaolin Temple.

The Fatsan Museum in China has historical evidence that Cheung Ng did exist approx 150 years before the formation of the Red Boats. The evidence points to his martial (military) and operatic involvements. This information was ferreted out by GM Ip Chun (Ip Man's eldest son) who pointed this out to the Ving Tsun Museum.

In HFY lore, Hung Gun Biu (1800's) is credited for introducing WC to the Red Boats, and the development of SNT, CK, BJ segmentation.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Tan Bong Fuk and SNT, CK, BJ.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Chi Sau methods.

HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the 1/2 Point Concept via the weapons.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share centerline theory, though c/l application/usage may differ.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the 1/2 Point Concept via the weapons.

CSWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share the nature of Fuk, which is to subdue/cover... a trait of Shaolin.

CSWC, HFYWC and Red Boat Era Wing Chun share Fuk, the c/l concept, the 1/2 Point Concept, similar gate theories, the weapons and the Wooden Dummy.

Savi,

Thanks for the posts, very good stuffs! Within each of us is a center of wisdom far deeper and greater than we are aware of.

[Gangsterfist]

with out getting politics involved or making claims to history with no back up, I can see it like this.

The biu sao, was sometimes called the snake hand of wing chun, because of its similarity of how a snake boxer would strike. It is infact very similiar.

The huen sao, is a more compacted version of a white crane tech, which I only know has the white crane cools his wings (also heard it called the white crane spreads its wings), which is also found in the taiji I study, thats how I am aware of it.

So, the motions of the techniques are almost identical, it can be assumed that it was borrowed from those systems. However, a lot of southern systems share many similar aspects. I also know a southern dragon form my sifu taught us because of its similiar execution of techniques using the human body compared to wing chun. Its similiar, but still different. It has concepts of swallowing, spitting, tearing, penetrating, etc that can be found in wing chun but the techniques drawn from the dragon form, and from the wing chun form are executed slightly different. Plus the footwork is almost identical to triangle footwork (in the dragon form) found in a lot of wing chun systems.

So, my logical conclusion with out any politics involed, based on all my knowledge from all the martial arts I have trained, and sparred against, Wing Chun holds many similar, and almost identical aspect to tons of southern arts. So, it can be logically assumed that they were borrowed, or coincedently similiar. Since most of these arts have been around longer than wing chun its more logical to assume that it was borrowed.

[yellowpikachu]

Why wing chun kuen the way wing Chun is?

This question has to be answer from different dimentions.
Such as the shape, momentum, and energy level.

The same external shape can be misleading if not probe into the way how the momentum/power was generated and how the energy flow source and occur.



For example, why is a White Crane Fujian's water shape hand is not a Wing Chun Tan Sau? judging from shape, they take the same palm up shape. Why is a Hung Gar Beauty look at the Mirror is not the White Crane Fujian's water shape hand?




In addition,

Reality can be roughly devided in to two realm, in very general.

The metalphysical/idea/vision/imagination... realm.
The physical realm
and
the transformation/creation Zone which is a barrier/overlap between the metalphysical and physical.


Thus, There are wishfull idea such as Chan or Dao which was created by the imagination thoughts of some onewhich can never become reality. Because these ideas doesnt have the potential or energy or path to cross the creation Zone to bring it to the reality in the physical world. These ideas might sound great but they are wishfull, illusive, or often misleading idea.


IE: Whatever Zen talk which is not able to " LIVING IN NOW " based but wishfull thought based is just thoughts. IT cant be realized into the physical world.
Thus, this type of zen talk or Dao talk were called TALKING ZEN /Dao or in the Chinese history, it was refer as Clear chat.
There is a saying of "Clear Chat lead a country to ashtray." This type of epidemic happen in various dyansty such as song or Ming Dynasty..etc.

This type of talk has a characteristics of "all words no Process". In daoism or buddhism, there are specific training process to attain the reality of the mentalphysical realm within the physical realm, thus, there are lots of so called - Dharma Door or gate way to a attain a certain phenomenon for the Buddhist and Daoist.

Take for example, There are different type of Samadhi or proper stillness which one can realized with one's physical meditatin state to attain the reality in the mentalphysical state. The Zen lineages has its own "process" to attain enlightment which was provent by generations and generations of the patriach of the particular lineage. and this, Dharma Door only available from the particular lineage. It is not general at all. The Soto Zen lineage has the soto lineage way. The LinZai lineage has the linzai way. The Kwi Yang has the Kwi Yang way. The tibetian Buddhism has its Mahamudra....etc. The Daoist different lineages has different ways or process to attain the goals it set to be. It is all very technical down to earth non-wishfull thought practices.

a good example, is people in martial art talks about fear, pressure, stress.... etc. and guess what? what happen is these fear or horrow shows up while one in deep meditation? how to deal with it? since our mind cannot differentiate between awake or sleep when we get into those states. and our thought/logic doesnt works there. So, there is methods, methodology, process of exercution exist to deal with those stuffs. in the same token, desire, sex,,,,, also show up. Such as in the story of before the Buddha get enlightement, the Mara show up with his sexy daughters, or the Daoist sage Lu Dong-Bin has to face....
be it in the east or west, those "test" state will appear.

Thus,
Talk without a solid Dharma Door transmission from a lineage is not going to get anyway from the metalphysical realm to the physical realm or vice versal.



While searching into Chinese MArtial arts, this type of Talking Zen/Dao needs to be filter out. otherwise one will searching into unended wishfull thinking or ideas of others.

[Vajramusti]

Yellowpikachu- some queries here and there on your two interesting posts- for my own information and clarity regarding
aspects of your thesis. (a note though- as discussed before some versions of Cho family- including wang kew kit(sp?) seem to have
mixed clf and other things in their art and the details of that transmission are somewhat fuzzy to me. Further- history can be a mixed bag- perhaps pointing out missed eelements but also glossing over important later evolutions).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snipped with bracketed comments.

If the 5 elderly story of Shao Lin is taken as real.
(There are some big time gaps in some Ji Shim stories between the supposed burning of "the-a" temple and Ji Shim's appearance ona red boat- from what I recall. Does your thesis involve the 5 elders)?

In the history of Wing Chun kuen from various lineages, Ng Mui is either direct or indirectly related to Yim Wing Chun. and always connected with CRANE style.
((Ok-in part..I am confused in part. The hung gar reference to wing chun is someone else..right?))


Out side the Wing Chun history, across the southern Chinese Martial art styles,

Ng Mui was present as the 3rd or 4th generation student of Fujian White Crane art according to the Worldwide Fujian white crane big meeting years ago.
(((Makes intuitive sense-does the white crane arts have ygkym anywhere? Hung Gar apparently uses that somewhere))


A good question is, will any Shao Lin temple in China, be it from North or Southen willing to endose ......And endose that Wing Chun Kuen is an art from that temple and very specifically show the martial art DNA on who, why where, when, what.... from that temple?

((A lot of lineage history is likely to be promotional- but nothing wrong in ateempting to splve puzzles analytically))


White Crane had produce champion fighter in China and it also produce a fighter who is draw with the Famous Yee Chuan greator, Wang Xiang Zhai.
((Was Wang Xiang Zhai from the south- or north? The so called 3 nejia styles were from the north-right?))

Fujian White Crane contrasted to other southern martial arts system which has lots of claim but without any solid trace able record of the history and the interaction with the other martial art systems. )

((I dont follow- unclear))


BTW, Fujian White Crane has term that echo the Ng Mui's identity to relate to Fujian White Crane.

The term said
Sam (three) Dim (points) Ng (five) Miu (plum) Fa (flower)

or Three points five plum flower.
((Why the 3 points and why a 5 petaled flower? The 3 points related to the three battles? to sanchin? Sanchin breathing still at this stage?))


In summary,
the term "Ng Mui' does point to the Fujian white Crane.

((Understandable- to me. Did original white crane split into the various cranes?))))



3 and 4 also pointing to what is happing before 1850. we now can traced up to 1800 where White Crane of Fujian started a new Evolution where the Classical White Crane spin off into various crane lineage.
((All from the same mother?))

we can also compare

((How? examples?))

the Jing or power issuing before and after this evolution. and compare the SLT's techincal components with what happen in this era to see when is it very likely SLT was created. Before or after this fujian white crane evolution era.

For the present searching, SLT is very likely design or created before the evolution of the fujian white crane started around 1800.
((How so? see my previous question on the ygkym ma))







one of the mother components of Wing Chun Kuen is Fujian White Crane or Fu Jian Weng Chun White Crane kuen . WEng Chun is a place in Fujian not a Temple in this case.


There is no reason for WCners to have doubt about the teaching of these ancestors above.



The search of emei connection starts with the history how the ancestors of Cho family or Yik Kam recorded in 1970. That is --- Ng Mui passed the white crane art to a person name Miu Shun and Miu Shun combine his own art with Ng Mui to develop a system called Siu Lin Tau.
(I know zilch about Miu Shan-this is still before the emei connection. I am fuzzy on the time line here))


Conincidently, the YKS lineage also share the story of Miu Hin. and the Koo Loo lineage adress that their art consist of emei's weapon's kuet.

((Could be stories depending on time lines in the appearnce of the connection? I am fuzzy here..))



From the above, there are two issues has to be look at.


1, why is it SLT doesnt use the classical Fujian White Crane's Sanchin stance as the based? eventhought, today if one uses the sanchin stance platform to practice SLT, one will feel comfortable and powerfull. Try it and see for yourself. instead of standing in YJKYM, stand in the sanchin stance.
((Yes- why in your thesis? The sanchin stance (goju has it also)
is powerful but the breayh does not flow smoothly. A friend gave me some pictures and sequences of a crane chi gung form from fujian- seems "labored" and isometric))

2, what is the art of Miu shun?

(Dont have the foggiest idea))




These two questions lead to a direction of going west from Canton which is Kwan Xi and Sze Chuan --- emei.

((Miu shun has already appeared in your thesis?))


it then also lead the understanding of SLT/SNT using the YJKYM instead of San Chin stance to develop a "softer" flow of Jing (power)


one of the name of game with the close body art is that what if one missed the first execution or the first short, it cant be a one short art isnt it? will it becomes a point of no return? That lead to the requirement of Full Arrow or Multi-dimentional resultant force structure.
((Characteristic of convertability and flow?))

And that lead to why SLT/SNT is designed to have no kicks. that is due to it is a fajing art and fajing art has to based within the Full Arrow.

((Prallel to tree hugging standing in Chen..?))

Broken arrow cannot deliver for this type of power.

((Rechambering issue?))




Then, on this path of searching traveling west, we got lucky. that is the reveal of the emei 12 zhuang Kuen kuit. which explain the reason of why things are the way they are.

((Is Mui shan now in the past-in th emei phase?))

BTW, Emei 12 zhuang, is also a solid written recorded art which can be traced and tracked to every details. a 700 years or so art. the White Cloud Zen master/buddhist monk's attaiment is recorded that he has advance Buddhism attaiment where he "saw" the Samanthabadra Boddhisatva in a vision .....

((So the emei phase gets rid of sanchin breathing?))



on the searching of the Red Boat Uprising and why it is called Wing Chun kuen we also get lucking which lead us to Shang Hai where across the filed we can see the big picture and the reason why it is named Wing Chun Kuen --- the martial art of the opera singer, in the process of evolution. we also knows who lead the red banana...... and compare note among different uprising qoute preserve in some wing chun lineages.

((much detail- and I am foggy on the red ban(d)ana connection- I may have slipped on a peel))



above is just a thesis. again, it needs to be taken as Thus, I have heard. and always respect other theoris exist on Wing Chun Kuen.

((Interesting thesis- I am clear in parts- fuzzy in others.. could be writing could be my problem also in understanding))

BTW.
IMHO, we need to look through and beyond the limb technics... and get into the momentum level, then later into the energy level.
and all of the things develop in the limb level will then extend into the momentum level, and then energy level.

it cant be that at limb level, momenum level, and energy level are three different kinds of art and train differently.
((I actually understand that))

it has to be simple single art which can develop beyond a level and continous on the unlimited journey.


((Evolution- good or bad continues...
You have put in a lot of work in building your thesis piece by piece.
I am fuzzy on some of the chronology and some of the details( Mui shun for example... but I enjoyed reading the thesis.

I will by pass singing Norah Jones songs- I am going to her concert- she is the daughter of the great sitarist-Ravi Shanker-
no wonder she is so precise evn in jazz))

Rather than poetry- today-
Oklahoma 12 Texas 0 !! (American football-I gew up around Oklahoma football and wrestling- as avery interested spectator)

[reneritchie]

Ali G - So, me says, this Wang Chung stuff, where's it come from?

Guy 1 - A Buddhist nun taught a young girl so she could fight off a gangter who wanted to marry her.

Ali G - So this nun didn't want this girl getting none either? I mean, with respects, maybe she wouldn't have stood so funny like if, you know, she'd let the gangster--

Guy 2 - Wait, wait, the Buddhist nun story is just a cover. It really comes from Shaolin monks and Ming Generals...

Ali G - Ming Genitals? You mean the guy from Flash Gordon with his privates and all (snaps fingers)?

Guy 2 - Generals!

Guy 3 - Wing Chun comes from Western Boxing

Ali G - With respect, is that really polite to talk about on telly and--?

Guy 3 - Boxing, you idiot, like Mike Tyson...

Ali G - Well that don't make no sense, don't it? (Makes finger in to gun), you know. Pop! Pop! Burrrrapa! With respect, how you going to box that?

Guy 1 - What about Bruce Lee? I mean, he's why everyone wants to learn Wing Chun....

Ali G - (Hand still like gun) Could he block a bullet? Burrrapa!

Guy 1 - Stop that.

Ali G - (Frowns and turns back to Guy 2) So, let me ask yous this. Me hears about all this Shaolin stuff, but what about the Wutan?

Guy 2 - Wutan?

Ali G - Cause, with respect, Wutan Clan ain't nuthin to **** with...

Guy 1 - This man is a moron...

[Savi]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
with out getting politics involved or making claims to history with no back up, I can see it like this.

The biu sao, was sometimes called the snake hand of wing chun, because of its similarity of how a snake boxer would strike. It is infact very similiar.

The huen sao, is a more compacted version of a white crane tech, which I only know has the white crane cools his wings (also heard it called the white crane spreads its wings), which is also found in the taiji I study, thats how I am aware of it.

So, the motions of the techniques are almost identical, it can be assumed that it was borrowed from those systems. However, a lot of southern systems share many similar aspects. I also know a southern dragon form my sifu taught us because of its similiar execution of techniques using the human body compared to wing chun. Its similiar, but still different. It has concepts of swallowing, spitting, tearing, penetrating, etc that can be found in wing chun but the techniques drawn from the dragon form, and from the wing chun form are executed slightly different. Plus the footwork is almost identical to triangle footwork (in the dragon form) found in a lot of wing chun systems.

Gangsterfist, here you stumble onto some good observations, and what I think are some tangents as well. For an accomplished designer (or multiple designers) to design something "new", he/she/they do not necessarily look at the parts of other designs and mold it into the current work in progress. The "mix and match" approach is an illogical one at that because designers strive for functionality rather than some artistic appeal. The "mix and match" approach (which would be fairly inefficient) is also in contradiction with the purpose of Wing Chun; to do that which is most efficient, and that includes the design stage.

This being the case, the design of WC is focused around principle, concept and theory intent on expressing an overriding philosophy/purpose; rather than designing a system by borrowing techniques from other designs. You touched on this focus with this:

Its similiar, but still different. It has concepts of swallowing, spitting, tearing, penetrating, etc that can be found in wing chun

whereas drawing observations or even conclusions based on appearance may cut short the truth one may seek.

If you recognize that the higher level knowledge of Wing Chun exists within its science (principles, concepts, theories, etc...), then why would you look for an answer in techniques, which is NOT what WC is based on?

The Huen Sau and the Biu Sau in WC are governed by concepts and principles, employed by strategy and tactic. The shared usage and/or appearance of it in other southern systems only tells you that WC is also a southern system. That's about it.

Then again, where do the majority of southern systems stem from? That region of information should also be researched as it holds great potential for new discoveries for everyone.

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
So, my logical conclusion with out any politics involed, based on all my knowledge from all the martial arts I have trained, and sparred against, Wing Chun holds many similar, and almost identical aspect to tons of southern arts. So, it can be logically assumed that they were borrowed, or coincedently similiar. Since most of these arts have been around longer than wing chun its more logical to assume that it was borrowed.

This may stand to be logical, presuming one has concluded that Wing Chun is only about 150 years old; give or take a few years and that the answers are within the appearance of performance.

1. I think looking at common shapes is a good first step, but that does not guarantee anything more than a satisfaction in personal observation. This may be seen as chasing techniques.

2. The second step would be to study what is being done behind the techniques you are analyzing. This will take you even deeper into finding out where to step next. This could be viewed as chasing center.

[KPM]

Originally posted by Savi
Time period. The Red Boats came about around the 1850's. Many WC lineages trace their family roots and/or oral legends to this time period.

No. You misunderstood my question. What lineage or style of WCK are you using to represent "Red Boat Era WC" as a reference point when you are making all of these comparisons concerning theories and content?

Keith

[sihing]

Savi,
Very good points and arguement. It reminds me of my younger years in training in WC, and watching old kung-fu movies. I used to see "techniques" that looked similar to Wing Chun in those movies all the time. There were tan sao's, bong sao's, kan-sao, etc..flying all over the place in those movies, but it was the concepts behind the techniques that made the Wing Chun I practice different than what I saw in the movies. WC is a concept & principal based MA system, not a technique based, and although the 5 Elders were masters of animals systems for the most part, they developed "New" theories of fighting and combat, to which would eventually become the core of the WC system.

James

**Note: the movies I watched were shaw brothers movies and usually directed by Lau Kar Leung(Liu Chia-lian) who was a Hung-Gar master and into showing more realistic kung-fu in the Hong Kong movies. Basically his fight scenes were set up to show what real kung-fu looked like, but in a choreographed form, like 2 man forms.****

[Savi]

Originally posted by KPM
No. You misunderstood my question. What lineage or style of WCK are you using to represent "Red Boat Era WC" as a reference point when you are making all of these comparisons concerning theories and content?

Keith

If I misunderstood your question, I apologize. But, in truth I am not isolating any singular lineage to represent "Red Boat Era WC" as I am generalizing a section of time in history; hence the use of the word, ERA.

There are about 14 different lineages of Wing Chun that stem from the Red Boat timeframe (1850's), and maybe a few that are researching their historical roots beyond the Red Boats.

It is important to note that the Red Boat was a chapter of the Red Opera Company (of the 1700's) which was also a chapter of another organization. So there is a huge implication of martial and operatic involvement prior to the formation of the Red Boats of the 1850's. How did all these martial systems get on the Red Boats in the first place? And why did they end up there?

[Savi]

Originally posted by sihing
WC is a concept & principal based MA system, not a technique based, and although the 5 Elders were masters of animals systems for the most part, they developed "New" theories of fighting and combat, to which would eventually become the core of the WC system.

James

Hey James! Old School Kung Fu movies still rock! The special effects and corny sound effects still crack me up!

Some of the research material shared between other museums and the VTM have (as far as I have been informed, and I am no authority by any means) not ruled out that the 5 elders may not be individuals, but 5 martial systems. I am not sure if their collaborated efforts have been conclusive, but I guess certain artifacts have opened up this possibility.

I agree with the focus of "New" theories, as that of Efficiency may overhaul/affect/develop/enhance all existing/invovled theories at the time. They had to have common denominators (consistency factors) to adhere to some type of standard/requirements for their new shift in thinking. But I am certain that Efficiency was the ultimate goal in their endeavor. This being the case, it seems more logical that there were more than 5 individuals that were involved in designing Wing Chun, including individuals who field-tested it over time.

[canglong]

There are about 14 different lineages of Wing Chun that stem from the Red Boat timeframe (1850's), and maybe a few that are researching their historical roots beyond the Red Boats.

It is important to note that the Red Boat was a chapter of the Red Opera Company (of the 1700's) which was also a chapter of another organization. So there is a huge implication of martial and operatic involvement prior to the formation of the Red Boats of the 1850's. How did all these martial systems get on the Red Boats in the first place? And why did they end up there?

All excellent points and good questions.

[yellowpikachu]

Hi Joy,

(a note though- as discussed before some versions of Cho family- including wang kew kit(sp?) seem to have
mixed clf and other things in their art and the details of that transmission are somewhat fuzzy to me. ------- J


You have a great point.

To keep things clear, I am going to use "Yik Kam's record preserve by Cho family" in the future to differentiate from the HIS-STORY create in the present days about Cho family.



(There are some big time gaps in some Ji Shim stories between the supposed burning of "the-a" temple and Ji Shim's appearance ona red boat- from what I recall. Does your thesis involve the 5 elders)? --------J

I use the term "if" to present a view on the Five elderly stories and buring of Shao lin that. (say if we take it with blind faith)

IF one belive in the existance of the FIVE elderly and JeeShim stories.
then one by Default has to accept Ng MUi's existance is as "REAL" as JeeShim.

Thus, One cannot make the conclusion that Jeeshim exist and create the original Wing Chun and Ng Mui doesnt exist.









((Ok-in part..I am confused in part. The hung gar reference to wing chun is someone else..right?)) ----- J



Hung gar reference to Fong Weng Chun of Fujian. NOt the Wing Chun of Wing Chun Kuen.


One thing we want to be carefull also is that Hung Gar stories is not exampted from the Localization Evolution. So, all reference has to be examine with care.





(((Makes intuitive sense-does the white crane arts have ygkym anywhere? Hung Gar apparently uses that somewhere)) -------- J


Hung Gar uses the YJKYM in thier Iron wire set etc.

But is it the same YJKYM as what in SLT that is a big question. IMHO, one has to go into The 3 level : The Shape, Momentum, and Energy to verify if it is the same thing or it is just a "look Alike".


In Addition,

As for the White Crane of Fujian,

lets look at a section of what the White Crane of Fujian wrote about one of thier Stance.

the stance wide is equal shoulder wide or slightly wider, two knees slight bend... contract the buttock, ... inner thight clamping upward,.....

(note: if the stance width is around 1.5x of the shoulder and wider. It is no longer the same stance as above.)


Both the SLT Kuen Kuits and Emei 12 zhuang using the exactly same term --- "Equal shoulder stance".









White Crane had produce champion fighter in China and it also produce a fighter who is draw with the Famous Yee Chuan greator, Wang Xiang Zhai.
((Was Wang Xiang Zhai from the south- or north? The so called 3 nejia styles were from the north-right?)) ---J


Wang was from the North. After he had mastered his Shing Yee Chuan, he travelled around China to test his skill.





Fujian White Crane contrasted to other southern martial arts system which has lots of claim but without any solid trace able record of the history and the interaction with the other martial art systems. )

((I dont follow- unclear)) ---- J



What I mean is Fujian White Crane history and art are well recorded, documented, and traceable. Compare with lots of Southern Chinese Martial arts style which have lots of claim made but un-trace able.






((Why the 3 points and why a 5 petaled flower? The 3 points related to the three battles? to sanchin? Sanchin breathing still at this stage?)) --- J

Yup.
The 3 points 5 petal plum flower relate to the Triangel shape, the 5 limbs power (as called in White Crane of Fujian the Goh Kee Lat)






((Understandable- to me. Did original white crane split into the various cranes?)))) ----- J


Yup,

Classical White Crane evolve and grow as time passed.







3 and 4 also pointing to what is happing before 1850. we now can traced up to 1800 where White Crane of Fujian started a new Evolution where the Classical White Crane spin off into various crane lineage.
((All from the same mother?)) ----- J


Yup.







we can also compare

((How? examples?)) ------ J

Look at each evolved Crane style, Such as Eating crane, rushing Crane, flying Crane.....




the Jing or power issuing before and after this evolution. and compare the SLT's techincal components with what happen in this era to see when is it very likely SLT was created. Before or after this fujian white crane evolution era.

For the present searching, SLT is very likely design or created before the evolution of the fujian white crane started around 1800.
((How so? see my previous question on the ygkym ma)) ------ J



We can always compare how the classical crane and each type of evolve crane's structure, the process of generate thier power to SLT structure/ process of power generation.








The search of emei connection starts with the history how the ancestors of Cho family or Yik Kam recorded in 1970. That is --- Ng Mui passed the white crane art to a person name Miu Shun and Miu Shun combine his own art with Ng Mui to develop a system called Siu Lin Tau.
(I know zilch about Miu Shan-this is still before the emei connection. I am fuzzy on the time line here)) ------ J

Miu Shun exist in both YKS and Yik Kam's lineage.










These two questions lead to a direction of going west from Canton which is Kwan Xi and Sze Chuan --- emei.

((Miu shun has already appeared in your thesis?))



Miu Shun is always credited by Yik Kam that he is the creator of SLT system. The location of Miu Shun learn the White Crane art is in Kwi Lin of Kwan Xi.




i
And that lead to why SLT/SNT is designed to have no kicks. that is due to it is a fajing art and fajing art has to based within the Full Arrow.

((Prallel to tree hugging standing in Chen..?)) ------ J


No..yes. Chen is just a case of these type of structure of CMA, not the mother of all.




Broken arrow cannot deliver for this type of power.

((Rechambering issue?))


Broken Arrow default to at every instance---- self-compensation is needed.
Broken Arrow is not a by default equilibrium in multi-dimentional resultant force platform.





BTW, Emei 12 zhuang, is also a solid written recorded art which can be traced and tracked to every details. a 700 years or so art. the White Cloud Zen master/buddhist monk's attaiment is recorded that he has advance Buddhism attaiment where he "saw" the Samanthabadra Boddhisatva in a vision .....

((So the emei phase gets rid of sanchin breathing?))---- J


in general, The shape of White Crane of Fujian being Kept, but the momentum, and energy components has been evolved with Emei components.