Something that caught my attention (a quote)

[old jong]

This comment from an other thread caught my attention:

While others may be disenchanted with WC and have given it up for Hsing I etc,

Why is it so?...This is a common phenomenom.We see guys leaving Wing Chun for other arts ,they see as more "powerfull"!
Hsing I (as it is the mentioned art in the quote) is known for it's structure and feet/hands coordination to produce power.It is not the various "techniques" that matter really but the attributes developped in the practice.It is a relatively simple and direct art,just like Wing Chun and it is a bridge between "internal and external" as Wing Chun (imo).Is it simply easier to integrate than Wing Chun?...
Why do so many Wing Chun people have a problem developping a good moving structure?...
Many will cultivate good power and structure in SLT (even if they don't fully realise it!) but the instant they have to put it in motion,they seem to lose everything! The key to good structure/motion/power cultivation is Chum Kiu but it seems to be the weak link of many wingchunners.Many will consider Chum Kiu as a form for learning "turning" or kicks among other reasons but (IMO) it is solely for learning to coordinate power and motion.The more this form is studied and understood!...The more real power can be applied in Chi-Sau,sparring,you name it!...The trick is to simply use the teachings of the form.Done properly,it possess all the attributes of SLT but using motion as an additive.Just like Hsing I!....(In results anyway!)

BTW,good boxers and others with good hands/feet coordination achieve similar results.It is just a question of choosing the weapon you like best and training it right!...It always start from the stance.

[Ernie]

Jong ,
In all seriousness , you’re right ,
It’s not that wing Chun is lacking , on paper it’s a fantastic training concept .
But it’s lacking in the training methods ,
This has always been my beef when I meet other wing Chun people that seem squeamish about pressure testing/training I didn’t say sparring . but progressively adding intensity and safety equipment along the way .

Using modern methods and tools [ like every body else is doing , boxing etc…]

Not removing chi sau , or forms or any of the core foundation but further investigating it , in ourselves

The first few generations [ our teachers ] were strong and trained with purpose , they had a goal to apply there training and prove it worked . but each generation after got weaker , the goal was replaced with accumulating techniques or belts or certificates and titles . the beginning of the end in my eyes .

Once the goal was lost so was the honesty and the method became what ever anyone wanted to make up and call it wing Chun . so now many buy into the hype train for a few years and get all chi sau skilled , but then meet up with a local boxer or Thai guy or what ever and get served and immediately blame the art .

Thing is did they research beyond there own sifu , did they train in a way that would produce results against a real aggressive person with a destructive mindset , probably not

So who is really to blame


It’s easier to put the blame on something else rather then to be honest with oneself

With stuff like chi sau competitions and bigger organizations popping up you will continue to see wing Chun become karate or tai chi a pale shadow of what it once was .

Sad but true

People need to take personal responsibility for there own growth .


Ps

Your dead on about chum kui

Once in motion there is so much there to guide you =)

[S.Teebas]

My guess is that people want fast results.

Keeping the focus, linking of the body and maintaining relaxation required for combat effictive results takes patience, constant practice and dedication.

[Broken Wing]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
My guess is that people want fast results.

it is a shame that it seems the art (any art really) is going especially in America. I wanted to get into Tai Chi and other arts so i purchased a couple of vids and what they (instructors in the vids) were saying the same thing that people want fast results so they don't learn the other aspects of the art they pursue. They get relly disappointed and quit. i am not even referring to the "johnny-come-latelys"
I am 35 and began a couple of years ago and rue the fact I didn't learn at such an early age so I don't know if I can get the "spiritual' aspects of the art of (hybrid of Shotokan and TKD called Yoseikan karate-do) and b/c i hurt myself i started to put the art in limbo and take Tai Chi for health but even in that art there are so many things to learn much less master.
I actually was contemplating WC but not a soul near me at all.

[Vajramusti]

I think that people should quit doing wing chun. (VBG).

It is sucha poor art.

It's punches are not as powerful as boxing.
It's knife work is not as good as FMA.
Its footwork is not as good as boxing.
Its polework is not as good as a spear.
Its rear leg kick is not as powerful asa a MT kick.
Its "grapper" work(borrowing from Hendrik) is a crapper.
It's internal work is not as good as taiji.
We have no video records of Ip man or Leung Jan fighting.

So why bother with wing chun-please quit wing chun.

Actually a lot of people should.
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FWIW- an individual figure comes to mind-
Joe Montana.
When he was the quarterback(American football) in San Francisco
- for so long.
His arm was not the most powerful.
His feet were not the fastest.
He was not the strongest.

But he was one of the very best if not the best quarterback -period. Knowing where to go, when to go, how to go- with the right timing and vision.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by old jong

Why do so many Wing Chun people have a problem developping a good moving structure?...

My take is that so many dont see the multi-dimentional interaction.

thus, it becomes a dull practice of following what "sifu said" and See the world with "sifu's describtion" which often is only two dimentional or "dont it correct /done is wrong" the most.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
My guess is that people want fast results.

Keeping the focus, linking of the body and maintaining relaxation required for combat effictive results takes patience, constant practice and dedication.

very true!

there is no way to speed up the Multi-dimentional personal observation, practice, and gain usefull "experience" . that takes lots of time.

[Tydive]

As a newcomer to WC I have a different perspective. I have seen exactly what OJ and Ernie are describing in pretty much every art I have studied. It has nothing to do with WC and everything to do with our ADD / MTV mindset.

People want belts, independant of skill. There are many McDojo's out there, serving to the lowest common denominator. The vast majority of the people I see are focused on the form over the function (and the training progression encourages that). So, if you want to make money you take the kids, you promote people who can do the technique even if they never develop a solid center or real understanding of the art. How many people want to hear that it can take decades to "master" the basics?

If you look hard you can find those places where good training happens. Those lucky enough to have a good teacher, and who are willing to put in the work can reach a very high level of skill. Complaining about the rest of the guys eating at McDonalds while you eat prime rib is kinda silly. I say learn & teach to your capacity but don't sweat it if somebody else does not want to eat at your table.

Now, if the place that you study is serving sugar burgers and you want some good ol meat... it's time to move on. If the chef is taking your prime rib and cooking it wrong why eat it?

[Broken Wing]

Amen tydive...my sentiments exactly

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
My take is that so many dont see the multi-dimentional interaction.

thus, it becomes a dull practice of following what "sifu said" and See the world with "sifu's describtion" which often is only two dimentional or "dont it correct /done is wrong" the most.

Hendrik I finally figured you out ,
You’re a friggen Martian

like that old guy from that TV series my favorite Martian , with the TV antennas coming out of his head

your post sound just like the way he used to talk

you have been stranded here for a few hundred years , when your space ship crashed into emie mountain , you personally invented wing Chun out to torture humanity with some imaginary thing they could never attain .

but now a few hundred years later

it has evolved and you’re p*ssed off because you want the credit

it's all so clear to me know


it makes exactly the same amount of sense as a multi-dimensional brain f*rt



like any good alien you have to keep shedding bodies , this explains all the diferent names you use

I'm on to you man

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
Hendrik I finally figured you out ,
You’re a friggen Martian

I'm on to you man

great input from a tribal chief in amazon.

keep making smoke for communication !

yes you are the greatest chief in the world ! as you love to be called.

even thought our statelite data tell us your whole tribe is going to be wiped out the next rain season.

[Ernie]

is that some more of your special secret martian talk

i'm on to you man , all that double intergalactic time travel ic chip stuff

you must live in roswell


i guess our limited earth up front honest truthful communications would seem like smoke signals to such an advanced super being like yourself

but give us time we will find the stargate to your home world , the land of super slt and energy bodies that zap lighting from there finger tips

[anerlich]

My guess is that people want fast results.

Wing Chun was *meant* to deliver fast results, if history is to be believed. So what went wrong?

(Spare the multi-dimentional [sic] stuff please. IMO that sort of thinking is part of the problem, not the solution)

[anerlich]

While others may be disenchanted with WC and have given it up for Hsing I etc,

I gave up Xingyi for Wing Chun.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
is that some more of your special secret martian talk

there is no secret in wheather satelite signals.

but one has to own a reciever and learn how to use it.



sure, one can keep praying to rain god, or using the real time 'fighting' trial and errors to find out if the tribe got wipeout.

sure sure the chief is the greatest fighting hero. but, some rather watch tv news to evacuate away from the storm.

different world different choice. nothing good or bad.