Fighters and Non-fighters

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
But there are a number of WC and TCM people on this forum who are above average...

and could therefore teach Royce a thing or two about standup.

I guess, until they actaully spar or fight Royce, we'll never know.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And until Dale Frank (Knifefighter) posts the fight he had with Steve Ewing for the rest of us to see (something he's been asked to do on this forum at least three times now - but has never done)...we'll never know if Dale is any good either.

Talks a great game, though.

Wants one (or more) of us to fight/spar Royce Gracie...but won't even show us him against Steve Ewing!

Who's Steve Ewing?

I know who Royce Gracie is...but never heard of Steve Ewing until it was brought up on another forum.

Oh well...

[Knifefighter]

Victor:

I'm not sure why you are so fixated on that one fight of mine. I don't have the capability (or the time) to take it from VCR to digital- nor am I even sure I still have that particular tape. I told you that you could probably find some of my Dog Bros fights on their tapes.

I never claimed to be great, just someone who has a lot of experience and has fought and competed quite a bit. I have experienced Royce first hand (something I'll bet none of those who are saying he has no standup skills have done) and his standup better than most of the WC practitioners I have come across over the years.

BTW,If you are ever in the LA area, I would be happy to fight you, no rules.

[Ultimatewingchun]

And if you're ever in New York...I extend the same invitation.

[sihing]

Hey Hey guys, I'm the one that had the beef with Knifefighter’s (Dale) apparent arrogance. I have to agree though with Victor's assessment of Royce's striking skills, they suck. But he was a professional fighter and like I said before he trained and trained and trained, as a pro would. To say the you Dale have sparred fought hundreds of WC, TCMA practitioners and comparing their striking abilities to Royce's he would wipe the floor with them, maybe so, but they must have been lousy in the first place. Like the others have said, Shamrock nailed Royce years ago and put that goose egg on his eye for everyone to see how good his stand-up is and Shamrock in no accomplished striker. So far IMO, the best example of good stand-up was when Belfort destroyed Abbot in under 1 minute by hitting him so many times on the back of the head the guy couldn't get up because he needed two hands to push himself up off the mat, and couldn't use the other hand to protect himself, lol.

On a Steven Seagal bio tape, he tests the students going for black belt with a multiple person attack, usually 3 students against the 1 being tested. Aikido is a non-striking art, and in watching the clips of some of the gradings, some were successful and some weren't but the ones that were used some sort of strike to help themselves win, and since they are not strikers they were very inefficient in striking to say the least. The movements I saw these students using were very similar to the Wing Chun I use, but we strike, and use grappling (in this case arm bars, pulls/pushes, neck controls, etc..) in combination. My goal when fighting one on one is to strike while defending, and then immediately controlling and leading the opponent to the ground by one of the above mentioned techniques, all the while striking him at the same time while he is on his way down. Once there it is harder for him to retreat and he has to take most of the blows directed to him. When dealing with multiple opponents, you have to again simultaneously attack/defend but you have to direct this person in front of one of the other attackers to block their path and give yourself some time, striking them first makes this easier as they may be more stunned from your blow, than if you just tried to direct them in front of another. Since most WC is striking specialized this is easier for us, therefore it is easier to employ other techniques that may help in a situation such as with multiple opponents.


James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
I have to agree though with Victor's assessment of Royce's striking skills, they suck.

Have either you or Victor tried fighting or sparring against a top level professional MMA fighter whose striking you think sucks? If you haven't then you probably don't have a clue.

It's easy to sit in the stands and comment on the last place Olympian's sucky running performance. It's quite another to actually get out on the track and run a race against him.

Originally posted by sihing
When dealing with multiple opponents, you have to again simultaneously attack/defend but you have to direct this person in front of one of the other attackers to block their path and give yourself some time, striking them first makes this easier as they may be more stunned from your blow, than if you just tried to direct them in front of another. Since most WC is striking specialized this is easier for us, therefore it is easier to employ other techniques that may help in a situation such as with multiple opponents.

And in how many mutliple opponent situations have you successfully used this?

Originally posted by sihing
On a Steven Seagal bio tape, he tests the students going for black belt with a multiple person attack, usually 3 students against the 1 being tested.

OMG... you are basing your notions on multiple opponent fights off of a Steven Seagal tape???

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
But there are a number of WC and TCM people on this forum who are above average...

and could therefore teach Royce a thing or two about standup.

Victor:
Do you consider yourself to be one of these people?

[sihing]

Knifefighter(Dale)
Fortunately for me I have never had to deal with a multiple opponent situation using these techniques, but the person that taught me has on many occasions, so should I listen to him or you?

Have I sparred with a top MMA practicioner, no. Would I learn something from them if I did, yes probably, you can learn something from anyone. But a student from the school, who is inconsistent in his training and has a skill level less than I has sparred with the local MMA champ who is competing at a national level with no problems. Why haven't I done this myself? I never really thought about it or had any need to do it. Does this mean I have no right to a opinion of their skill, maybe if I have never seen them in action but I have seen Royce in action, and his ground game is ions above his striking, to which in my mind he just used to bridge the gap to get to the ground fighting.

As for the Steven Seagal thing, it wasn't from a movie that I was referring to, it was from a bio/documentary that his students put together of him. Real footage of him using his aikido and grading his students, not something staged or made up. From what I understand Seagal has the respect from the MA community as a very good aikido practicioner, even Dan Inosanto has said that he is excellent in his choosen art. Is aikido not a grappling art?

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
I have to agree though with Victor's assessment of Royce's striking skills, they suck. But he was a professional fighter and like I said before he trained and trained and trained, as a pro would. To say the you Dale have sparred fought hundreds of WC, TCMA practitioners and comparing their striking abilities to Royce's he would wipe the floor with them, maybe so, but they must have been lousy in the first place.

How about you, James? Are you one of the above average guys whose standup is better than Royce's.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Fortunately for me I have never had to deal with a multiple opponent situation using these techniques, but the person that taught me has on many occasions, so should I listen to him or you?

Have you at least put on full gear and trained full contact against mutliple opponents who are trying to take you out before forming your opinions on what you think works?

Originally posted by sihing
Have I sparred with a top MMA practicioner, no. But a student from the school, who is inconsistent in his training and has a skill level less than I has sparred with the local MMA champ who is competing at a national level with no problems.

So you have a second-hand anecdotal basis on how good your standup is against a mid-level MMA fighter, one who is at the local level and just starting to develop the skills and experience to compete at the next rung towards the top of the MMA ladder (BTW, have you ever actually seen your fellow student spar against the MMA fighter, or are you just taking his word for it). And you definitely have no idea of even the lower rung of the elite level MMA skill in relation to the average, or even above average MA practitioner.

Originally posted by sihing
Does this mean I have no right to a opinion of their skill,

Sure you can have an informed opinion about their skills- against other top level professional fighters.

Originally posted by sihing
As for the Steven Seagal thing, it wasn't from a movie that I was referring to, it was from a bio/documentary that his students put together of him. Real footage of him using his aikido and grading his students, not something staged or made up.

I'm guessing, and correct me if I am wrong, but these gradings would far from an actual fight where the multiples were trying to inflict heavy damage.

Originally posted by sihing

Is aikido not a grappling art?

Aikido is an art that is usually practiced with willing partners, no full-on sparring, and has no competitive testing grounds. The type of grapplers I am referring to come from freestyle, folkstyle, Greco-Roman and sumbission wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, and/or Judo.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Victor:
Do you consider yourself to be one of these people?"
(Dale Frank - Knifefighter)

I'm not going to get into a peeing match with you about Royce Gracie's standup skills vs. mine.

The point I was making by my statements were twofold...one about Royce (who, btw...makes no claims whatsoever about the quality of his striking/kicking skills)..and the other - about you.

1) Royce Gracie is a second-rate standup striker/kicker at best - which is obvious to everyone but you. A world-class fighter...when all is said and done (and especially as a grappler)...but a high quality striker? Come on - get real, Dale.

2) I said what I said because you, Dale Frank, always appear to go out of your way to try and denigrate not only all of wing chun as a martial art...but virtually all of the people who do wing chun as well.

In other words, Dale...you constantly come off as an arrogant bully. Are you aware of that? And you're never wrong about anything...What's up with that?

Is this the real you? Or are you just the most convincing of trolls?

[sihing]

Firstly, instead of me beating on my chest on how good or bad I am, let me say this about me beating Royce in standup. Anyone that can throw 6 to 8 good punches in a second is dangerous, I can, not because of any special ability in me but because the system allows me to employ strikes in a quick fashion and after 16+yrs of practice I have gotten faster than when I first started. Two, anyone with the proper knowledge and skill in certain WC systems is dangerous. I have those skills in one such system of WC, the same applies to anyone skilled like this in a variety of other arts like, BJJ, JKD, Silat, Kung-fu, Boxing, etc. Three, I've seen Royce fight standup, he's never seen me so at the least I have a element of surprise, especially if it was on the street and Royce had absolutely no idea of who or what I know and he choose to fight me standing up, to which I don't think he would do.

The fact of the matter is I am not unbeatable by a long shot. Same with Royce. No one is unbeatable and anything can happen. I would obviously not want to fight Royce unless it was absolutely necessary, and if he fought me standing up I believe I would definitely have the advantage there (see above).

As for your questions Dale, yes I have put on the gear and sometimes no gear and sparred full contact with multiple opponents.

As for the MMA champ here, the student in question actually had him come down to the school and try a class out. He may join and I witnessed them sparring, again it was no problem for the WC student. My point was, whether or not this MMA champ is local or national he is training heavily on a regular basis, this WC student isn't training on any consistent basis. Although he has been a member since 1992, he has been very inconsistent with his training and has only attainted a level 7 out of 10 in our system. A normal student can obtain level 10 in 8yrs time, so this student is 4yrs behind schedule.

As for the Seagal footage, its from the documentary called "The Path beyond Thought", you can download it from Shareaza if you want. The students that got defeated by the 3 student attackers, even while they were pinned against the wall or ground Seagal still had them try to fight there way out. It looked pretty realistic to me, as Seagal stated it was anything goes for the student and the 3 attackers used any and all means to tackle and subdue the student grading, that was their one and only task. Check it out for yourself and make up your own mind.


James

[Frank Exchange]

On the multiple opponent situation, Wong Shun Leung had to face this more than once, as has been already pointed out.

He also advocated running, in that as his opponents tended to run at different speeds, they became strung out in a long line, and he could suddenly turn and drop them one at a time, then take off again.

At the peak of his Beimo days, Wong was a highly fit and conditioned fighter, so this is not as far fetched as it may seem.

For those of you who havent read "Look Beyond The Pointing Finger", its a great read, with many stories and anecotes similar to this. Like when he was at his Beimo peak, his mum was worried about waking him by hand, as his reactions were so tight he might attack her on instinct, so she used to throw rolled-up socks at him from his bedroom door.

[Vajramusti]

Strange-
Knifefighter-

how does he know who can do what on a chat list?

Is he a promoter for a Royce fight when Royce is not a participant on the list?

Does he have a substantial money pot guarantee for such a
fight and the authorization for negotiating contracts?

For general chest beating there is that other underused fighting forum.

Strange that wc with all it's flaws still attracts so mant people to a wc forum. I have not checked lately- but except for the general forum where one can discuss anything including the virtues of rutebegas(sp?) the wc forum seems to attract the most people.

[Bob8]

Sihing (James), believe me when I say you have absolutely no chanche against Royce.... He is far to experienced. And while I liked it that you posted the little clip I can see you are by far not skilled enough to fight Royce.