I agree Sui Lum Fighter. I don't think if Brandon had lived he would have been as involved in MA as his father. Gotta admitt I reckon he would have been a better actor though, he was always fun to watch.
Junior Member
I agree Sui Lum Fighter. I don't think if Brandon had lived he would have been as involved in MA as his father. Gotta admitt I reckon he would have been a better actor though, he was always fun to watch.
Junior Member
Well as a new commer to JKD, I have learned that it is not a style but more of a combative concept. It's all about ranges. Different art for different ranges. TMK Bruce's "style" was Jun Fan.
Bruce was certainly not the best martial artist ever, however he WAS one of the greats. His understanding for combat was well above the average practitioner. His ability to learn other arts so quickly and efficiently was very impressive. I have much love and respect for Bruce, but to say he is the best every is quite an over statement. Hwang Fei Hung, Grand Master Ma Xianada, just to name a couple are also great fighters. Also the monks of Shaolin. Bruce is in my mind amongst them, not better than, not worse.
I dont fear the 1000 kicks you have trained once, I fear the 1 kick you have trained 1000 times--Shaolin Saying.
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I like to think of JKD as a "school" rather than a "concept." Since Inosanto says that anyone wanting to get anywhere in JKD must know the basics of Jun Fan KF. If there are "basics" then we are either talking about a style or a school. Just like Shaolin is a "school."
The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)
Junior Member
I think the entire was to say that Bruce believed he did not have a style and while he may have started JKD, he saw it's limitations and decided to end it. Lets not get caught up with corporate symantecs like Jun Fan JKD or otherwise. TMK Bruce disbanded JKD and simply allowed his students to continue with thier schools. Sui Lum makes a very good point in saying if there are basics then it is a style.Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
Well as a new commer to JKD, I have learned that it is not a style but more of a combative concept. It's all about ranges. Different art for different ranges. TMK Bruce's "style" was Jun Fan.
Let's face it whether Bruce wanted it or not such was his fame that the JKD title would have been plagerized anyway and for the most part has been.
Registered User
I'm glad someone agrees with me on that one. Maybe I've been wrong in the past when I've called it a "style," since there seem to be as much variety to JKD as there is to Karate or Shaolin kung fu. Different teachers have added different styles and emphasised different techniques. Given the variety of JKD styles, it's probably more appropriate to label it a "school."
The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)
You Talkin Ta Me?
Is that to say he was better than the great Kuo Yu Chang (who supposedly could kick 5 consecutive times in mid-air; a feat Bruce could not perform)
Let me further ask you this: besides his exhibition in Long Beach, which top competitive fighters did Bruce ever fight in real life? Shouldn't we go by those standards?
Well, if we went by those standards, then Kuo Yu Chang's name goes right out the window. We've never seen Bruce fight other then an exibition fight, just like we've never seen Chang do his five kicks in midflight.(Lui Kang bicycle kick?)
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Is that to say he was better than the great Kuo Yu Chang (who supposedly could kick 5 consecutive times in mid-air; a feat Bruce could not perform)First off, just because no one could see Chang do the bicycle kick on TV back in the 1920's doesn't mean those eye witnesses who said they saw him do it are blind or making s**t up. It seems that for some, just because Bruce beat everyone up in his movies and seemed larger than life on the big screen, he's "the best their ever was."Well, if we went by those standards, then Kuo Yu Chang's name goes right out the window. We've never seen Bruce fight other then an exibition fight, just like we've never seen Chang do his five kicks in midflight.(Lui Kang bicycle kick?)
And Chang did beat people in open competition.
Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 11-25-2004 at 11:05 PM.
The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)
You Talkin Ta Me?
Have you seen him fight? My point still stands. I'm not saying Chang WASN'T a great martial artist, but more then likely your getting info NOT from first hand accounts, which puts Chang in the same category as which you have placed BL. Bruce Lee is said to have accomplished a lot as a martial artist, and supposedly was a great streetfighter. You can neither prove nor disprove this. Just like you can't prove nor disprove Chang's kicks.
Junior Member
Quite right. Legends of are just that legends. The stories get bigger and bigger and the legend grows with each telling of the tale.Originally posted by Yung Apprentice
Have you seen him fight? My point still stands. I'm not saying Chang WASN'T a great martial artist, but more then likely your getting info NOT from first hand accounts, which puts Chang in the same category as which you have placed BL. Bruce Lee is said to have accomplished a lot as a martial artist, and supposedly was a great streetfighter. You can neither prove nor disprove this. Just like you can't prove nor disprove Chang's kicks.
Fact: One good kick is more effective than five aerial kicks will ever be. Think about it. These day's we have a number of MAists that are taught a much more dynamic array of techinques than has ever been available in history. The science of sport and nutrition has shown us how to push our bodies to the max and performance enhancers have pushed humans beyond the max. All of this never available in the past. We also have a lot of people that do nothing but train, as they did in the old days.
I have not seen a MAist today that can pull off multiple aerial kicks and make every one count, like described in these legends and seen in kung fu films.
One reason I have an interest in Bruce's teachings is that while he may have not had any recorded fights on film, he certianly had a lot of eye witnesses that saw him in action. These eye witness accounts no doubt have also been expanded for the "legend of Bruce" but at least they can be measured and questioned.
Tornament fighting never proved anything. Before I had any MA experience, in my teens, I fought at least three susposed champions of thier divisions, all black belts etc. and none of them could fight to save themselves. One of them I happened to be good mates with, exept on that day, and to watch him in competition was awesome. This is not bragging but I wiped the floor with him. I have witnessed a hell of a lot of 'street fights' for want of a better term and some of the guys I saw fight and copped a flogging from had never been trained at all, but they could whip just about any one.
The fact that a MAist was never seen to fight or compete may simply mean they have nothing to prove or it could mean they are all **** and wind.
Registered User
Perhaps an MAist doesn't have to prove that he's bad-ass in the ring or on the Lei Tai. I believe this even though just about all MAists who really start to get good are naturally attracted to free sparring eventually.
The main problem I have always had with Bruce was that he was just so **** egotistical. Everyone who knew him agrees on this one. Jim Kelly said that Bruce talked about himself allot. Bob Wall said that "Bruce thought of himself as an extremely bright and powerful man." He declared himself to be John Wayne, James Dean, Charles Atlas, and the guy who kicked your butt in jr. high (Bruce was known to be a bully back when he was in school in Hong Kong). He also said that he could "whip any man in the world." I'm sorry, but if somebody's going to make such a wild boast then they should go about trying to PROVE IT!! And where's the proof? A bunch of street fights against thugs and gangmembers? A scrap or two on his movie sets? An amateur Wing Chun competition? One of the main reasons some of the top AMERICAN prize fighters at the time were training with him was because kung fu was an art they had never heard of and they wanted to learn about it from one of the few people who openly taught here in the US (Brandon Lai and Wong Jack Man were also among the first). I still have to ask, where are the trophies? Which true kung fu masters did he beat in order to prove he was "the best" MAist ever?
Great MAists of the past like Kuo Yu Chang and Fu Zhen Song fought in matches that were well documented and with arguably some of the best MAists of the day. These matches, I might add, had no rules and often ended up with somebody being maimed or killed. Fu Zhen Song was known to crush his opponents hand in the opening hand shake and laughingly say "well, this ought to be a good match!" Kuo Yu Chang could bend raw iron
and smash rocks with his hand. Just because I've never seen him do these things with my own eyes doesn't mean all of the countless people who did are lying. We didn't see Napolean march on Moscow, does that mean that it never happened? I'm sorry, but the notion that Bruce Lee was the best martial artist of the 20th century or ever is complete horses**t. He couldn't hold a candle next to Chang, Fu, and many others. I don't even think he was as good as Peter Ralston, the first non-Chinese to win a National Championship in China. Somebody can blab all they want about how good they are but until they prove it someplace besides the movie set, it's just talk.
Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 11-26-2004 at 04:15 PM.
The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)
Junior Member
Bruce never he was the best MAist ever in fact the interview I saw with him he said that there were many people faster and better than him.Originally posted by Siu Lum Fighter
We didn't see Napolean march on Moscow, does that mean that it never happened? I'm sorry, but the notion that Bruce Lee was the best martial artist of the 20th century or ever is complete horses**t. He couldn't hold a candle next to Chang, Fu, and many others. I don't even think he was as good as Peter Ralston, the first non-Chinese to win a National Championship in China. Somebody can blab all they want about how good they are but until they prove it someplace besides the movie set, it's just talk.
Chang Fu and many others are not documented in history as is Napoleon or Casaer, this comment is mere fanciful banter that has no pertenance when spoken in this reference.
The statement "I could whip any man in the world" is a statement of thought and one that I believe of myself. I am not stupid enough to fight thinking I might be beaten, I fight with everything I have got when the need arises and my only ojective is to win.
If I had to choose the best MAist ever I would choose Bruce for one reason and one reason only; He bought MA to the world, making it popular and encouraged the exploration of the arts.
Gladly I never heard him talk **** about bending iron bars with a cold hard stare or some other disproven concept like that. Anyway since when did bending a bar or breaking a bone make anyone a MAist or even a good fighter.
I think you time would be better spent developing your ability to relate to dynamic situations rather than wishing you had super human powers that I have never seen proven, and I have trained at a lot of gyms.
You Talkin Ta Me?
The think that made Bruce so great, was his understanding of MAs. This guy was way ahead of his time. PPL are barely starting to grasp the concepts he had been preaching about for decades. (thru his books and students who carried on his views after his death)
Registered User
Have you ever heard it said that he who says he knows, knows nothing and he who knows says nothing? To say something like "I'm the best there is" shows that one has a desire to pit their ego against all of the fighters in the world.The statement "I could whip any man in the world" is a statement of thought and one that I believe of myself. I am not stupid enough to fight thinking I might be beaten, I fight with everything I have got when the need arises and my only ojective is to win.
Naturally others with a similiar disposition are going to seek you out to make you eat those words. I've got to hand it to Bruce, he certainly had some balls to talk like that. Does it show that he was a wise man? I think not. A true master would never make such an anouncement.
He would just prove it if he felt the need or desire to do so.
Really what he did was popularize kung fu here in America. Sure, he had allot of dedication and enthusiasm that allowed him to make it in Hollywood, but he was one of a handful of others who were just starting to teach here in the states. Other than kung fu, Karate and a whole multitude of other arts were practiced worldwide at the time. Many of the people who were drawn to him were already trained in other MA's.If I had to choose the best MAist ever I would choose Bruce for one reason and one reason only; He bought MA to the world, making it popular and encouraged the exploration of the arts.
I'll only go as far as to say that Bruce was the first international kung fu movie star. Other than that, I still think that all of this hooplah about his method and style being the best is due to a whole lot of hype. You have to be suspicious when there's a cottage industry that rakes in millions trying to make you believe Bruce to be the greatest of all time.
Oh, and there are detailed histories concerning Chang and Fu. Including pictures of Chang smashing 12 bricks with his palm and lying underneath a car while it rolls over him.
http://www.harmoniousfist.com/kuyucheung.html
http://www.jingmo.org/pages/502179/index.htm
http://www.jingmo.org/pages/502179/index.htm
http://www.plumpub.com/info/Bios/bio_FuZhenSong.htm
Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 11-27-2004 at 10:20 PM.
The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)
Junior Member
Again I will point out that he never said he is the best there is, nor do I. The point is I could whip anyone. In simple terms it is a statement that nows no limitations.Originally posted by Siu Lum Fighter
Have you ever heard it said that he who says he knows, knows nothing and he who knows says nothing? To say something like "I'm the best there is" shows that one has a desire to pit their ego against all of the fighters in the world.
Since when did wisdom make a MAist. Wisdom has nothing to do with it, thats for the religious and spiritualist. MA is about fighting, whether that be in attack or defence, nothing more.[i]Really what he did was popularize kung fu here in America. I'll only go as far as to say that Bruce was the first international kung fu movie star. [/B]
I very much beg to differ, and I support this by saying I do not and have not ever lived in America. I have however seen the impact Lee had on the MA industry in a couple of countries in the world and it is definetly the most profound of any person living or dead.
Thanks for the links.
You Talkin Ta Me?
He was also the first to advocate mixed martial arts. In his time, many were too proud to search out different systems and different teachers.
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