End All Be All Styles

[shirkers1]

I don’t know if this is just a rant or a question, take it how you will. But this goes out to those of you who feel the need to tear down other styles, etc. You take a single tactic that you see someone do in a video or whatever and even though the tactic or drill is part of a huge picture you judge a whole system on it. Not to mention it’s the man more than the style that will determine a good fighter. To me this is common sense and apparently others don’t have this view, which I find very ignorant. But that’s fine you can have your views I’m not going to degrade you on some board on the web. I’ll just keep doing what I do like I always have. Bottom line the things you say on these boards would not be said to my face without a verbal or physical response that you wouldn’t be too happy with.

For example two man partner drills as of recently have been brought out to be useless and un practical in the videos displayed. Now I myself have seen drills that yes need some fine tuning. Distancing, etc. but I'm not going to judge that style on that one single video I saw.

Many questions follow as to what the drills are for, etc. When you begin to defend yourself verbally and explain that this is how you start the training to get the mechanics, then you move to a more broken rhythm, free form training of the tactic. They still keep saying the same things. Example: It’s useless, no resistance, you know what’s going to happen, it’s not practical, can’t do that in a real fight. Even though you say eventually you get to that point in the training but you have to start somewhere to learn the mechanics before they start to judge. They still don’t get the point.

I’m sorry but this whole modern grappling “fad” is getting old. It has it’s uses but it’s not the ultimate fighting art. It’s mostly because of these kids out there who sit around all weekend watching UFC and thinking they can wipe the floor with anyone who trains a traditional MA because their “sport” is built around rules that suit their style of fighting. Yes there are some really bad practitioners out there, and styles for that matter. But no style is the end all be all, we pick what suits us and we train. Just because you beat a guy in one style doesn’t mean that someone else in that style will not come along and make you wish you weren’t born.

It’s always the same argument, you can’t use that in a fight blah blah blah. One reason that they bring up is that you’re not training the tactic in a real fight environment. Well let me ask you, do the people who train ground grappling train out on the concrete, gravel, or do they train on a mat? Do they do all of these take you to the ground techniques in a controlled environment? In order to practice an individual take down or other tactic you have to drill that tactic right? So what is the difference between that and a drill that you’re doing while standing up moving on your feet? I don’t see anything different other than the tactic itself. NO that slap trap isn’t going to work on the ground. BUT your ground tactic isn’t going to work standing on your feet either. So the argument goes both ways. Every tactic has a purpose and there is a time and place for that tactic. So the phrase “I’d like to see you use that against a ground fighter” has no merit. I throw that question back at you “well I’d like to see you mount me when I’m not on the ground and moving”. You can come close but unless you are wanting to hurt your training partner you are never going to be able to train a real fighting situation period.

What does the modern ground fighter have in his arsenal to deal with the opponent that they can’t get a hold of?

mark

[SevenStar]

the mma vs tma thing is older than dirt, but since you brought it up...

Originally posted by shirkers1
Many questions follow as to what the drills are for, etc. When you begin to defend yourself verbally and explain that this is how you start the training to get the mechanics, then you move to a more broken rhythm, free form training of the tactic. They still keep saying the same things. Example: It’s useless, no resistance, you know what’s going to happen, it’s not practical, can’t do that in a real fight. Even though you say eventually you get to that point in the training but you have to start somewhere to learn the mechanics before they start to judge. They still don’t get the point.

most of us understand that just fine. However, in our opinion, that is flawed. training the mechanics is great - do that during the first part of class. During the second part, drill it. WHile you are drilling, the instructor gives corrections. during the next part of class, you may drill it more free form. Your form doesn't have to be picture perfect before you begin to drill it. By spending months getting the mechanics, then months drilling with no resistance, followed my months of no resistance, but with broken rhythm, etc. you have wasted alot of time. That is why we say that you will learn faster with our approach.

I’m sorry but this whole modern grappling “fad” is getting old.

grappling hasn't been a fad since about 1997...


It has it’s uses but it’s not the ultimate fighting art.

we know that. that's why we crosstrain.

It’s mostly because of these kids out there who sit around all weekend watching UFC and thinking they can wipe the floor with anyone who trains a traditional MA because their “sport” is built around rules that suit their style of fighting.

how is that any different from the guys who say "all you have to do to defend a double leg is root or sidestep" and that they don't compete because "most of their lethal techniques are outlawed"?


Yes there are some really bad practitioners out there, and styles for that matter. But no style is the end all be all, we pick what suits us and we train. Just because you beat a guy in one style doesn’t mean that someone else in that style will not come along and make you wish you weren’t born.

that is true.

It’s always the same argument, you can’t use that in a fight blah blah blah. One reason that they bring up is that you’re not training the tactic in a real fight environment. Well let me ask you, do the people who train ground grappling train out on the concrete, gravel, or do they train on a mat? Do they do all of these take you to the ground techniques in a controlled environment? In order to practice an individual take down or other tactic you have to drill that tactic right? So what is the difference between that and a drill that you’re doing while standing up moving on your feet?

your argument is wrong. we don't complain about environment, we complain about aliveness. In judo, bjj and mt, we are able to train extremely hard. I can spar, randori, roll, etc. very aggressively everyday against a resisting opponent. TMA on the other hand can't practice their eye gouges, hair pulls, groin strikes and other deadly self defense techniques with the same intensity.


I don’t see anything different other than the tactic itself. NO that slap trap isn’t going to work on the ground. BUT your ground tactic isn’t going to work standing on your feet either.

no it won't, but my throw will. grappling isn't purely ground based, however the ground is the focus. there are plenty of throws, sweeps and takedowns. In my case, several more, as I also train judo, which focuses on standup grappling.

So the argument goes both ways. Every tactic has a purpose and there is a time and place for that tactic. So the phrase “I’d like to see you use that against a ground fighter” has no merit.

yes it does. I don't care where your slap trap works. However, many tma guys say that their style has grappling, or that their chin na will just transfer to the ground. That, is false. On the same token, a bjj guy won't be able to apply his armbar the same way if you are standing, but you don't hear bjj guys saying that they can do that...

I throw that question back at you “well I’d like to see you mount me when I’m not on the ground and moving”.

grappling matches begin standing. being up and moving isn't really an issue. close the distance and take them down.

You can come close but unless you are wanting to hurt your training partner you are never going to be able to train a real fighting situation period.

agreed. But in all honesty, who comes closer, the avg sport guy or the avg tma? tma train for a possibility; sport fighters train for an inevitability.

What does the modern ground fighter have in his arsenal to deal with the opponent that they can’t get a hold of?

opportunity. do you kick? If so, I can enter on that. Do you punch? I can cover and follow it back in. getting hold of someone isn't extremely hard, necessarily. Think of ir as our version of bridging, if you will. Plus, as I've said, many guys cross train, so they will do the same thing you do from that distance - strike.

[Shadow Skill]

WOW, that was a long rant (lol). But seriously I feel where you are coming from. I had a co worker find out I studied kung fu and the "that wouldn't work" conversations begun. He would also say ignorant stuff like "all you stand up fighters are the same, All I have to do is get you on the ground". But what he didn't know is how much of what I knew or anything about the style I do. So invited him to test my skillz. You mentioned above that it's not the style it's the fighter... well he wasn't a good fighter. He had so many flaws fighting standing up there was no way he could ever get me on the ground.
I fully agree that people tend to judge other arts just based on a glimps of some practice technique or a 2 man exercise.

[Shadow Skill]

7* you seem to always raise some good points. But what I think shirkers is talking about is this attitude that people that grapple have.
on the flip side of that I think that a lot of us MAist tend to have a sort of ****y attitude or some times a little too confident maybe. So when some one comes at during a work out saying that won't work or this is not practical pi$$e$ people off regardless of what they study,and it leads to long drawn out disscussions such as this. I even find my self looking at others like their style is inferior to mine or like if tries that on me I would do this. I think that mind state comes from the confidevce we gain as MAist. And all though most of us think like that sometime it doesn't have to always be verbalized.

[shirkers1]

Seven star

You are bringing up some of the same points I'm talking about. You bring up some good ones but I hear the same things over and over. Like I said my training has worked fine for me. It's engrained into my every fiber. So what you trained short times on I have trained for years. It's to the point direct and when the opening presents itself action is taken, not thought of that action. We are the aggressors in the action, I still haven't heard of tactics you use if you don't get a hold of us. Not to say it won't happen someday, but I have yet had a grappler get a hold of me and take me to the ground and keep me there with out me doing more damage before he gets there and after he gets me there. Do you guys train on concrete, gravel or mats? If you train on mats your style is useless and inferior!!!!! LOL That's the kind of attitude I get from you guys on the way we train. I don't care who you are you are not going to be happy about rolling around on the concrete I've been there and it's not fun. So does that mean that your style sucks because you train on a mat and not in a real street situation? NO IT DOESN'T, I can say that. Why can't you guys say that stand up tactics work too? There is no middle ground. We do train "aliveness" but like I said you can only do so much before it's a real fight intending to hurt the other guy. If you've never been to a work out or seen me "fight" then don't say my stuff doesn't work. I wouldn't do the same to you. It's called respect. Any one who fights knows what this word is because most of the time that's what you are fighting for. Rarely is it a survival kind of thing, it's usually who's ****s smells stronger. That's arrogant and ignorant; it will bite you in the ass one day. Now I've been told I talk big, and I have to say I have to just to try and match all the big talk I hear from you guys.

So in order to throw you have to get a hold of me right? So how are you going to get a hold of me if I'm not standing there letting you? Do you see what I'm saying? Everyone has to develop the tactic somehow. So why is it okay for ground fighters to train the tactics and not okay for a stand up fighter to train them?

Shadow, yes that was my point. Once again I see the same points I just brought up made by 7 star. So I know it's a never-ending battle and that's why I said a rant or question. I was really ranting. I already know the answer I'm going to get from all the modern grappling guys. I've personally seen guys who train the way 7 star trains come in with the attitude and get nowhere with us because they can't get a hold of us. Eventually they give up out of frustration. "Well I can't get a hold of you to do what I want". "No shiat" That is because I don't want you to get a hold of me. So I'm moving I'm not standing in front of you. To use you're term "I'M ALIVE".

It’s all-relative. You know what, I really can't argue this any more I've done enough of this on the BULLSHIDO board where apparently quote "mantis is the new WC to make fun of". So yes we should abolish all MA styles and train like modern grapplers because in their words it's inevitable. <-- Sarcasm... Bottom line I would love for every one of you to just keep thinking the way you do and I'll just keep doing what I do.

[ekaltenborn]

Shirkers...great insight. I enjoy reading your posts.

Sevenstar-Just a quick question/observation... without starting an argument.... How experienced are you at both grappling and mantis kung fu?...You seem quick to offer up rebuttals.... Im assuming that you must be very proficient in both?


I personally have trained with shirkers both recently and when he was younger.... I can attest that he is the real deal. he has a great understanding of the principles we practice and can put them to use in a tactical situation. trust me my friend......


I have trained over a decade in a grappling syatem, and another decade in tanglang...and I have used both in my work. I have found that my tanglang training seves me much more than my grappling,... Like shirkers, my tanglang has been ingrained into me. My grappling is really secondary....more of a last resort

[shirkers1]

I could have just posted and talked to myself on this subject it has me so riled up. LOL

Thanks E for the compliments. You're no slouch yourself.

I think it falls back on the training of the individual and that individuals drive to be a fighter. Some of us were lucky enough to receive great training from a great teacher who himself has his head on straight when it comes to combat effective MA. Through this training I among others have run across styles across the board. All having something to offer but none being the end all be all style period, modern grapplers included. My style included on that list and I’m not saying my style was better than theirs but the training and fighters involved took care of business. Every situation calls for a tactic. You have to know that, you can’t be that arrogant to say I don’t care about your slap traps because it’s going to the ground. That’s like me saying I don’t care about your ground fighting because I’m not going to the ground. If the opportunity presents itself and the practitioner is trained properly he will do what he does best. I’m no slouch on the ground so frankly I don’t care if you do get me on the ground, but I tell you what you aren’t going to have fun getting me there.

To quote a great teacher/friend “all you ****ers have a plan until you get cracked in the face”. That sentence speaks volumes. I can understand having confidence in oneself in his abilities. But to be as bold to say that modern grapplers will defeat all who cross there path just because they know how to fight on the ground is preposterous. I wouldn’t be that bold to speak of my own art. There has to be a middle ground for each side to say there is use for both. I have yet to hear a modern grappler be a man about it and say, “oh wow what If I don’t get the guy down, or he won’t let me get a hold of him”? “Wish I knew how to fight on my feet”. I’m man enough to say that “hell yeah you should know how to ground fight”. But I’m not going to dismiss everything else for the chance someone lets me get close enough to take them down without taking some debilitating shots in the process. Leaving me useless once I do get him to the ground. So that’s why I keep saying, just go right on thinking the way you do. All kung fu is weak and useless in street combat. I mean hell mantis has only been in existence for hundreds of years. It couldn’t have any thing to offer.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Like I said my training has worked fine for me. It's engrained into my every fiber. So what you trained short times on I have trained for years. It's to the point direct and when the opening presents itself action is taken, not thought of that action.

The "so what" comes in when you are talking about time to learn. Why should it take years if it doesn't have to? They are two means to the same end. However, I'd rather become proficient faster - what if I'm training a style that takes years to become proficient at and I get attacked 5 months into my training? Some styles spend that much time just trying to get mechanics down, I hear. In that amount of time, you could be sparring, hard drilling, etc. It's not a big thing though, as I said - two means to the same end.

We are the aggressors in the action, I still haven't heard of tactics you use if you don't get a hold of us.

I mentioned two things above - our "bridging" catching kicks, following your hand as a punch returns, etc. Also, foot work. My goal is to cut off your line. It's called stalking. I want to try and control where you go - ideally backward, as I can advance quicker than you can retreat. you can also evade a strike and crash into them. for example, a strike comes to my face, lower level and come in under the punch - the good old fashioned shot. When our guys are getting ready for mma fights, we do drills where one guy can only strike and the other can only takedown. 9 times out of 10, the takedown guy makes contact, even if it doesn't result in a takedown. There will at least be a clinch, and from there the grappler can work.

Not to say it won't happen someday, but I have yet had a grappler get a hold of me and take me to the ground and keep me there with out me doing more damage before he gets there and after he gets me there.

I can say the opposite. Naturally, the next question is the quality of the grapplers and strikers that we have had experience with. Everyone's reference point will be different. However, there are pro level strikers that get taken down all the time, so natrually that would be questioned.

Do you guys train on concrete, gravel or mats?

depends on the class bjj and judo on mats. thai boxing on mats, canvas and on concrete.

If you train on mats your style is useless and inferior!!!!!

our mats have bits of gravel on them to simulate concrete.

LOL That's the kind of attitude I get from you guys on the way we train.

I get the same attitude from you guys. Actually, IME, TMA guys are the worst with this. When I started grappling, they asked me about my background. They were really anxious to see some stuff. As far as they are concerned, if you can make it work, than it's great. But, if you are just a trash talker, you get no respect. Conversely, I know CMA who said things like "if I grapple every day for 6 months (in the kung fu class) I will be as good as ANY grappler" and "in a real fight, all you have to do is punch them in the throat or hit them in the nuts". My favorite was "boxers have no real skill - they just stand there and slug eachother." wtf?

I don't care who you are you are not going to be happy about rolling around on the concrete I've been there and it's not fun.

It's no fun at all. Luckily, grapplers can throw. People make the assumption that we WANT to be on the ground in a fight. that's not necessarily true. However, if it ends up on the ground, we will know what to do. you may not be able to avoid going to the ground. I figure I may as well know what to do there.

So does that mean that your style sucks because you train on a mat and not in a real street situation? NO IT DOESN'T, I can say that. Why can't you guys say that stand up tactics work too?

We do say stand up works. that's why we cross train. What we say doesn't work are some of the BS theories people come up with. "just side step a double leg" as if it's coming from a mile across the room. chances are, you won't see it coming. "Once they have you, elbow them in the base of the neck" ummm.... no. Once we "have you", you are in the air and going backwards - that position shift kills any power you had while your feet were on the ground. your strikes won't hurt enough to do any real damage. "On the ground I'll use short power" fine, prove it... "I will sink my weight, becoming immovable - his takedown won't budge me" ROFL... right. This is the stuff we say doesn't work. Some people spout theories that have obviously never been tested, or else they would see how stupid they sound. Sport fighters tend not to sound this way, as they are always testing.


There is no middle ground. We do train "aliveness" but like I said you can only do so much before it's a real fight intending to hurt the other guy.

which is another point we make. People always say things like - for self defense we use hair pulling, eye gouges, kicks to the groin and knee, etc. - how are you able to do those full speed with significat force? you can't and don't. you really therefore can't quite be sure that you can pull it off against a fully resisting opponent. I do believe there is a middle ground.... that middle ground is basics.


If you've never been to a work out or seen me "fight" then don't say my stuff doesn't work. I wouldn't do the same to you. It's called respect. Any one who fights knows what this word is because most of the time that's what you are fighting for.

you are assuming that all of the people who speak also fight... However, what you are fighting for depends on the person and the situation. In the street, you are fighting for survival. As for the ring, it varies. I really don't care if you respect me. I fight to test myself. the fight is everything. the money medals and people's thoughts about me mean nothing.

Rarely is it a survival kind of thing, it's usually who's ****s smells stronger.

where are you talking about fighting? surely you're not talking about the street...

That's arrogant and ignorant; it will bite you in the ass one day. Now I've been told I talk big, and I have to say I have to just to try and match all the big talk I hear from you guys.

lol, actually you guys started it. I never witnessed any MMA guys saying anything until after I started hearing tma say that the only thing you need to do to avoid a double leg is sidestep. then, the grappler's started saying "prove it".

So in order to throw you have to get a hold of me right? So how are you going to get a hold of me if I'm not standing there letting you? Do you see what I'm saying? Everyone has to develop the tactic somehow. So why is it okay for ground fighters to train the tactics and not okay for a stand up fighter to train them?

that's cool, let's turn the table. How are you going to hit me when I don't just stand there? I move, have good foot work, keep my chin down, hands up, head mobile... I don't want you to hit me - what are you gonna do to change that?

Shadow, yes that was my point. Once again I see the same points I just brought up made by 7 star.

as long as there is some validity to any of them, you will always here the same points.

So I know it's a never-ending battle and that's why I said a rant or question. I was really ranting. I already know the answer I'm going to get from all the modern grappling guys. I've personally seen guys who train the way 7 star trains come in with the attitude and get nowhere with us because they can't get a hold of us. Eventually they give up out of frustration. "Well I can't get a hold of you to do what I want". "No shiat" That is because I don't want you to get a hold of me. So I'm moving I'm not standing in front of you. To use you're term "I'M ALIVE".

once again, I've experienced the exact opposite.

It’s all-relative. You know what, I really can't argue this any more I've done enough of this on the BULLSHIDO board where apparently quote "mantis is the new WC to make fun of". So yes we should abolish all MA styles and train like modern grapplers because in their words it's inevitable.

now you are getting it - resistance is futile!

Bottom line I would love for every one of you to just keep thinking the way you do and I'll just keep doing what I do.

that's the way it always has been. However, we think this way and are on a DISCUSSION forum.... of course we know what happens next.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn

Sevenstar-Just a quick question/observation... without starting an argument.... How experienced are you at both grappling and mantis kung fu?...You seem quick to offer up rebuttals.... Im assuming that you must be very proficient in both?

I'm not proficient in mantis at all - sevenstar is just a cool name. I've done 5 years of longfist and play with shuai chiao guys when the opportunity presents itself. I've been doing judo, bjj and thai for about three years. prior to I've also trained karate for 3 years under a friend from japan who was phenomenal. I would likely still be training that, but he moved back to japan.

I personally have trained with shirkers both recently and when he was younger.... I can attest that he is the real deal. he has a great understanding of the principles we practice and can put them to use in a tactical situation. trust me my friend......

I don't doubt him at all. I was merely repsonding to his thread.


I have trained over a decade in a grappling syatem, and another decade in tanglang...and I have used both in my work. I have found that my tanglang training seves me much more than my grappling,... Like shirkers, my tanglang has been ingrained into me. My grappling is really secondary....more of a last resort

that's the way it should be - you are a striker. I am primarily a striker as well. I do recognize the benefit of a good ground game though and train it accordingly.

question for you though - you have over a decade in which grappling system? If it is wrestling, do you have a hard time taking a striker down?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1

I think it falls back on the training of the individual and that individuals drive to be a fighter.

STOP SAYING THINGS I DISAGREE WITH!! I hate that statement. IMO, it should fall back on the school. But, it doesn't, and that's part of the problem. What image comes to peoples mind when you say kung fu? tkd? muay thai? Now, why is that? When you step into a thai boxing class, boxing class, etc. you will train like a fighter, whether you want to fight or not. That's not always the case with tma - as you said, they have to have the drive within themselves. Drive is awesome. but the school should have a standard.


Every situation calls for a tactic. You have to know that, you can’t be that arrogant to say I don’t care about your slap traps because it’s going to the ground. That’s like me saying I don’t care about your ground fighting because I’m not going to the ground.

you misunderstand what I said. you used it in a ground context - "NO that slap trap isn’t going to work on the ground." from what you said, we were already on the ground.

If the opportunity presents itself and the practitioner is trained properly he will do what he does best. I’m no slouch on the ground so frankly I don’t care if you do get me on the ground, but I tell you what you aren’t going to have fun getting me there.

doesn't matter, as long as the goal is achieved. If I take lumps to get you to the ground, so be it - such is life. I've come to accept that in a fight you will get hit. that's par for the course.

To quote a great teacher/friend “all you ****ers have a plan until you get cracked in the face”. That sentence speaks volumes.

It speaks volumes for someone who doesn't know how to take a hit or isn't used to it. That's why I stress the value of sparring and getting in the ring. When someone who fights gets popped in the face, he retains his cool and sticks to his plan - he's used to taking shots. Once the brain gets rattled, all hope may be lost, depending on the person, but not all strikes will cause this to happen.

I can understand having confidence in oneself in his abilities. But to be as bold to say that modern grapplers will defeat all who cross there path just because they know how to fight on the ground is preposterous.

I don't know of any serious guys who say that.

I have yet to hear a modern grappler be a man about it and say, “oh wow what If I don’t get the guy down, or he won’t let me get a hold of him”? “Wish I knew how to fight on my feet”.

1. step into the new millenium... most guys are cross training now with boxing, muay thai, etc.

2. if you look at past history, grapplers have had no problem getting a striker down unless he's trained with grapplers in depth and is knowledgeable of takedown defenses. A perfect example of this is chuck lidell. He is a terror because he is so good at defending takedowns.

3. "he won't let me get hold of him" will never pop into our mind. you aren't supposed to let us and we are expecting that.

I mean hell mantis has only been in existence for hundreds of years.

Is that supposed to mean something? mantis is a good style for sure, but the fact that it's still around isn't necessarily a testament of that. It simply means that there have been enough people to pass it down to and it's been kept alive. If I'm not mistaken, boxing, thai and wrestling all predate mantis.

[ekaltenborn]

so sevenstar, correct me if Im wrong... you havent much formal training?.....maybe 6 years?....which.. i mean,,... hell atleast you arent sitting on the couch eating cheese puffs and watching cartoons.

to answer your question, .. my grappling training has been in japanese ji jitsu. And no... I have never tried to take shirkers down when sparring.... i would have likely got my head busted. these guys i train with are pretty aggressive and their footwork is such that it would be very difficult to get ahold of them to take them down without being hit several times.

We have gone through 'phases' where we grapple... and have found that when someone is well trained, it can be hard to grapple them.

I have a friend and coworker that does bjj. hes been at it for several years.. and when askd why he doesnt spar with me for fun... he replies 'i dont want to get hit, eric doesnt play around'.....

Im not discrediting your post, but you say yourself you have never done mantis...... hell do you even have a good understanding of what seven star mantis is?.....

All I am saying is that I have used both... grappling and striking.... I have found my mantis to be much more effective.... Im here to tell you friend.... try to grapple sopmeone who moves like shirkers...... and youll likely be seeing a doctor.

I myself like to roll...... but I also understand the necessity to stay on my feet if at all possible.

Besides... grappling is one range..... its the closest... you have to get through my kicking and striking range first; and my response is c'mon buddy.... lets see what you got!!!!!

[ekaltenborn]

man... 7*... now i read your last post after my reply and i need to rant a little more.....

Shirkers is correct. After 20 plus years in this business I have to agree with him. It does all go back to the individial's training. people do martial arts; regardless fo the style for different reasons. Some want to learn to fight... some want to do it for confidence...some do it because it looks cool.... i for example do a little t'ai chi.... not because i want to fight with it.... because i enjoy it...it teaches me another way to do some things...and the group is allot of fun!!...... as you reach a more advanced level in your training, hopefully you can understand this...

You make some good points.... I have however made another observation.... from the sounds of it, you have done 5 years of long fist.. which I cant speak intelligently about... could you grapple your teacher?.......

I have tried to grapple my mantis teacher.... and got hit....
several times...

doesn't matter, as long as the goal is achieved. If I take lumps to get you to the ground, so be it - such is life. I've come to accept that in a fight you will get hit. that's par for the course.

this is just an uninformed statement...... please my friend...try to put me on the ground.... obviously you dont fight people who actually like to fight and would rather hit you than talk to you.... i have worked in several very rough bars... ive been there... in that situation.... if you allow some wanna be to put you onthe floor... you have a real problem.

[ursa major]

This seems to be a SevenStar and MMA vs. the rest of us kind of thing... I don't want to get into that debate but...

I am curious about one thing and have a question for MMA/grapplers/wrestlers/etc.

Now as I see it, the most probable outcome of a fight from the grapplers perspective is to head for the ground. It doesn't matter so much if you do or do not want to get there or that you may or may not agree with it personally, it matters that typical training from the grapplers perspective can be summed up as looking to the ground for the finishing technique. I make this conclusion having trained Jui-Jitsu and Hap-Kido (and now train 7 Star) and of course reading some of the many subject posts on this web site.

Now, assuming you are successful and take it to the ground and even bust up your opponent (broken arm, ribs, neck, leg, etc)...
what are you going to do about his buddies who are kicking you in the head with their Daytons while you are on the ground winning your fight?

Every fight I have witnessed in the last several years has been 2-3 or more on one and when it went to the ground the (victim) was done for.

Best regards,
UM.

[sayloc]

I think that a person should be well rounded in their fighting techniques. You should be able to fight using your blocking kicking, throwing and grappling techniques.

The seven star guy may think they can end it before it gets to the ground. The grappler may think he can get the seven star guy to the ground to end it.

I think you should be able to fight your opponent outside of what he is comfortable with. IE - If he is a grappler try to stay outside and fight him with what he is not familiar with. But you should have enough grappling skills to fight him at his preferred style if it goes that way.

You may be attacked by more than one. I agree this is very common. In this case you have to be well trained and lucky.

The best way is to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn
man... 7*... now i read your last post after my reply and i need to rant a little more.....

lol, that's the nature of these discussions. Thye always end up this way!

Shirkers is correct. After 20 plus years in this business I have to agree with him. It does all go back to the individial's training. people do martial arts; regardless fo the style for different reasons. Some want to learn to fight... some want to do it for confidence...some do it because it looks cool.... i for example do a little t'ai chi.... not because i want to fight with it.... because i enjoy it...it teaches me another way to do some things...and the group is allot of fun!!...... as you reach a more advanced level in your training, hopefully you can understand this...

no doubt I understand it. But, at the heart of MA is fighting. I enjoy it too. One of my buds wants me to stop by his capoeira class. And I might, because it looks cool. But, I've sparred with him before and I know he can kick arse with it as well. That's a standard set by his group. If you train with him, you will be able to fight with it.

You make some good points.... I have however made another observation.... from the sounds of it, you have done 5 years of long fist.. which I cant speak intelligently about... could you grapple your teacher?.......

then I couldn't, as I wasn't grappling then, other than the stuff we did in that class.

I have tried to grapple my mantis teacher.... and got hit....
several times...

was this before your grappling experience? Could you not get in AT ALL?


this is just an uninformed statement...... please my friend...try to put me on the ground.... obviously you dont fight people who actually like to fight and would rather hit you than talk to you.... i have worked in several very rough bars... ive been there... in that situation.... if you allow some wanna be to put you onthe floor... you have a real problem.

I've worked security as well. I also know how to evade and cover. you have grappled - you know that you don't just rush in with your hands down. That will get you KTFO by anyone. with my chin down and hands up, base lowered, shooting in, major target areas are slight. When I shoot in however, sure punches will be thrown. WIll you stop your advance merely because of that? nah, you take them and continue the shoot. Now, naturally, if you are unable to get hold of him, you don't sit there and continually rush in, eating shots - that wouldn't make sense.