End All Be All Styles

[SevenStar]

crap, all these replies....gotta....go.....to....work...!

lol, I shoulda known better than to sit down at the computer before work!!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ekaltenborn
so sevenstar, correct me if Im wrong... you havent much formal training?.....maybe 6 years?....which.. i mean,,... hell atleast you arent sitting on the couch eating cheese puffs and watching cartoons.

closer to 10. 13 if I include the time I spent in tang soo do as a kid. Or, are you referring to my time in longfist?

to answer your question, .. my grappling training has been in japanese ji jitsu. And no... I have never tried to take shirkers down when sparring.... i would have likely got my head busted. these guys i train with are pretty aggressive and their footwork is such that it would be very difficult to get ahold of them to take them down without being hit several times.

your focus in jjj is mainly standup grappling, no? So there's really no need for a shoot, as you aren't trying to take them down? In such a case, I can understand not being able to close and get hold of someone.


Im not discrediting your post, but you say yourself you have never done mantis...... hell do you even have a good understanding of what seven star mantis is?.....

yeah, I have an idea of what it is. Mobile footwork doesn't lead to being unable to take a person down though. grasp, strike continually, throw... Actually - not too different from us. Different means though. However, my comments aren't geared toward mantis specifically - we are actually having a similar discussion now on the WC forum. and we've had it on the main forum. And I've had it in person with karateka and other cma... it's endless.

All I am saying is that I have used both... grappling and striking.... I have found my mantis to be much more effective.... Im here to tell you friend.... try to grapple sopmeone who moves like shirkers...... and youll likely be seeing a doctor.

like I said, that's what cross training is for. I can grapple when the opportunity presents. when it comes to fighting, there are no pure grapplers anymore.

I myself like to roll...... but I also understand the necessity to stay on my feet if at all possible.

As do I.

[shirkers1]

---The "so what" comes in when you are talking about time to learn. Why should it take years if it doesn't have to? They are two means to the same end. However, I'd rather become proficient faster - what if I'm training a style that takes years to become proficient at and I get attacked 5 months into my training? Some styles spend that much time just trying to get mechanics down, I hear. In that amount of time, you could be sparring, hard drilling, etc. It's not a big thing though, as I said - two means to the same end.---

What if you got into a fight after the first day of class. It's a vicious circle. The way I train is fine and has worked for me. The way you train is fine for what you do as well. Tie no winner.

--I mentioned two things above - our "bridging" catching kicks, following your hand as a punch returns, etc. Also, foot work. My goal is to cut off your line. It's called stalking. I want to try and control where you go - ideally backward, as I can advance quicker than you can retreat. you can also evade a strike and crash into them. for example, a strike comes to my face, lower level and come in under the punch - the good old fashioned shot. When our guys are getting ready for mma fights, we do drills where one guy can only strike and the other can only takedown. 9 times out of 10, the takedown guy makes contact, even if it doesn't result in a takedown. There will at least be a clinch, and from there the grappler can work.--

We do the same but our goal is for you not to get a hold of us. If you do fine, we have the same posture as you. Head tucked shoulders up and moving hopefully we do more damage. tie no winner.

--I can say the opposite. Naturally, the next question is the quality of the grapplers and strikers that we have had experience with. Everyone's reference point will be different. However, there are pro level strikers that get taken down all the time, so natrually that would be questioned.--


I agree but I've seen pro level ground fighters get KTFO before they even get close. tie no winner

---I get the same attitude from you guys. Actually, IME, TMA guys are the worst with this. When I started grappling, they asked me about my background. They were really anxious to see some stuff. As far as they are concerned, if you can make it work, than it's great. But, if you are just a trash talker, you get no respect. Conversely, I know CMA who said things like "if I grapple every day for 6 months (in the kung fu class) I will be as good as ANY grappler" and "in a real fight, all you have to do is punch them in the throat or hit them in the nuts". My favorite was "boxers have no real skill - they just stand there and slug eachother." wtf?---

Well what if that kung fu guy is training his grappling like you do? You said it yourself that you learn in a short period of time. I still agree with them that everyone has different pain tolerances. Back to individual fighter not the style. not really a tie I still think I edged you on that one. But we'll call it even NO WINNER.

---It's no fun at all. Luckily, grapplers can throw. People make the assumption that we WANT to be on the ground in a fight. that's not necessarily true. However, if it ends up on the ground, we will know what to do. you may not be able to avoid going to the ground. I figure I may as well know what to do there.----

Well you don't study 7 star so you don't know but we are very strong at throws and nasty ones at that. tie no winner

----We do say stand up works. that's why we cross train. What we say doesn't work are some of the BS theories people come up with. "just side step a double leg" as if it's coming from a mile across the room. chances are, you won't see it coming. "Once they have you, elbow them in the base of the neck" ummm.... no. Once we "have you", you are in the air and going backwards - that position shift kills any power you had while your feet were on the ground. your strikes won't hurt enough to do any real damage. "On the ground I'll use short power" fine, prove it... "I will sink my weight, becoming immovable - his takedown won't budge me" ROFL... right. This is the stuff we say doesn't work. Some people spout theories that have obviously never been tested, or else they would see how stupid they sound. Sport fighters tend not to sound this way, as they are always testing.

which is another point we make. People always say things like - for self defense we use hair pulling, eye gouges, kicks to the groin and knee, etc. - how are you able to do those full speed with significat force? you can't and don't. you really therefore can't quite be sure that you can pull it off against a fully resisting opponent. I do believe there is a middle ground.... that middle ground is basics.---

So there is no defense against a ground fighter? That's all I hear from grapplers. Bull hockey pucks. It doesn't take practice it takes an inside willingness to do what it takes to hurt someone with dirty tactics. Another thing you guys don't think about is we don't have to hit you in the face we hit anything and everything that's within reach. We love nice meaty guys like grapplers, I've ended fights without even making a head shot. you may think you won that one I think I did. NO tie I won.

----you are assuming that all of the people who speak also fight... However, what you are fighting for depends on the person and the situation. In the street, you are fighting for survival. As for the ring, it varies. I really don't care if you respect me. I fight to test myself. the fight is everything. the money medals and people's thoughts about me mean nothing.

Rarely is it a survival kind of thing, it's usually who's ****s smells stronger.

where are you talking about fighting? surely you're not talking about the street...--------

How many fights have you been in or seen that you actually thought the other guys wanted to kill? It's almost always a **** contest and someone wants to save face so they fight. Depending on the person depends on how much they are willing to inflict harm on the other person and how many people are involved in the fight. I agree with a post made earlier. While your grinding your crotch into the guy your fighting on the ground his friends are treating you like a soccer ball (while standing up might i add).. I win

----lol, actually you guys started it. I never witnessed any MMA guys saying anything until after I started hearing tma say that the only thing you need to do to avoid a double leg is sidestep. then, the grappler's started saying "prove it".----

I almost vomited when I read this, I just spent the last few days getting insulted repeatedly by so called tough guys on the bullshido forum. Not once did I disrespect an individual or style, and I was called every name in the book with out inteligance and like I said if you were in front of me you wouldn't be saying it. Period. I highly doubt mantis practitioners hound you day and night about your training saying it's useless. i win

---that's cool, let's turn the table. How are you going to hit me when I don't just stand there? I move, have good foot work, keep my chin down, hands up, head mobile... I don't want you to hit me - what are you gonna do to change that? ---

You can't turn the table without answering the question that I was asking turning the table. tie no winner

To end this very long question answer. I in no way have anything personal against 7 star. We've had are arguments before and at least he gives inteligent points to his side. But my initial rant was directed to the fools out there who come out with nothing but verbal insults instead of knowledge. I know these guys have nothing to offer but I'm human and get sucked into the debate. Oh well.

[shirkers1]

---STOP SAYING THINGS I DISAGREE WITH!! I hate that statement. IMO, it should fall back on the school. But, it doesn't, and that's part of the problem. What image comes to peoples mind when you say kung fu? tkd? muay thai? Now, why is that? When you step into a thai boxing class, boxing class, etc. you will train like a fighter, whether you want to fight or not. That's not always the case with tma - as you said, they have to have the drive within themselves. Drive is awesome. but the school should have a standard.----

Well here's the thing, you can have a great school with a great teacher. But still produce bad students, I've seen this in person. It's up to that individual to have the drive as well it's not one or the other. tie no winner

---doesn't matter, as long as the goal is achieved. If I take lumps to get you to the ground, so be it - such is life. I've come to accept that in a fight you will get hit. that's par for the course.--

As I fighter we all know that, but those lumps can add up. tie no winner

---It speaks volumes for someone who doesn't know how to take a hit or isn't used to it. That's why I stress the value of sparring and getting in the ring. When someone who fights gets popped in the face, he retains his cool and sticks to his plan - he's used to taking shots. Once the brain gets rattled, all hope may be lost, depending on the person, but not all strikes will cause this to happen. ---

Once again still depends on the person, but has nothing to do with whether grappling is the end all be all which is the intial argument. I win

--I can understand having confidence in oneself in his abilities. But to be as bold to say that modern grapplers will defeat all who cross there path just because they know how to fight on the ground is preposterous.

I don't know of any serious guys who say that.---

Other than you that's all I've heard. That's why I said it. I win

[shirkers1]

From my personal experiance over the years we've had guys from all over the board come in and spar train whatever. We love to cross train and all of you know why. The benefits etc. Not once did that person leave thinking they had the upper hand in anything. Most of the time that person dropped their other training and joined us. Now I don't know if it was our school and training or what that is different from other schools. I don't know how they would have held up to other northern mantis schools, I'm speaking for myself. All I know is this garbage I hear out there doesn't stand up in my eyes. Modern grapplers are not the end all be all.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ursa major
This seems to be a SevenStar and MMA vs. the rest of us kind of thing... I don't want to get into that debate but...

I am curious about one thing and have a question for MMA/grapplers/wrestlers/etc.

Now as I see it, the most probable outcome of a fight from the grapplers perspective is to head for the ground. It doesn't matter so much if you do or do not want to get there or that you may or may not agree with it personally, it matters that typical training from the grapplers perspective can be summed up as looking to the ground for the finishing technique. I make this conclusion having trained Jui-Jitsu and Hap-Kido (and now train 7 Star) and of course reading some of the many subject posts on this web site.

the term finishing technique makes me think of anime. Anyhoo, grapplers don't necessarily want to be on the ground. In the self defense portion of our classes, we use throws and takedowns mainly, keeping us on our feet. As I understand it, the gracie academies train SD the same way, and I have a copy of royce's self defense book - the majority of it is standup. As I said, you don't want to go to the ground, but if you go there, you had better know what to do.

Now, assuming you are successful and take it to the ground and even bust up your opponent (broken arm, ribs, neck, leg, etc)...
what are you going to do about his buddies who are kicking you in the head with their Daytons while you are on the ground winning your fight?

Every fight I have witnessed in the last several years has been 2-3 or more on one and when it went to the ground the (victim) was done for.

Now, let's flip this one - you are attacked by multiple people. In such a situation, you have an increased chance of being put on the ground - a tackle from your blind side, one of them can slip and take you down with them when they fall, or intentionally drag you down, etc. When you end up on the ground, what are you gonna do? Who do you think can get up more efficiently, a striker who only trains standup or a grappler who is very familiar with the ground?

[unixfudotnet]

I am a newbie to mantis, but isn't predefined 2 man drills intermediate level?

My opinion is that you can never understand any style or system unless you experience and learn it yourself. A video or clip will never be able to automatically give this to you.

I do not understand how anyone can speak about any other system unless they know it. Just like anything else. How can I speak about programming embedded devices when all I do all day is UNIX systems and database programming, ya know. I may think I understand, but I really can not unless I actually do it.

It even seems very insulting to even suggest one could judge any system or style without actually knowing it and training in it for a long time. A couple of years too many people think they get it, and they do not.

That is why I think all this style/system vs style/system discussions are so silly, because most of the people really have no real basis upon when to back up the words that they speak. I can only speak of what I actually know. Everyone can only really speak of what they actually honestly know, not what they think they know, but what they know. Otherwise it is pointless conversation. Like people debating politics based upon information they read/hear from the media (which is a business, and from doing .gov consulting, I can assure you, that the media doesn't always tell you the truth).

[shirkers1]

Exactly unix, which was part of my original rant. That is the attitude I got from these cats all because mr ENFORCER put the vids on another forum. Which I don't mind because I'll back up my own vids. Problem was he put others vids on there as well and people were mixing the vids up and saying that my stuff was inferior with those vids as examples. I agree that makes them very ignorant. Hence my post.

as with 7 star we will never ever agree as a whole but we do agree on some points. It's all relative.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1

Well what if that kung fu guy is training his grappling like you do? You said it yourself that you learn in a short period of time. I still agree with them that everyone has different pain tolerances. Back to individual fighter not the style. not really a tie I still think I edged you on that one. But we'll call it even NO WINNER.

even the basics of the grappling we did were weak compared to what I've learned since I started grappling. And even back then, I could out grapple them. where they have to experiment with their techniques on the ground, mine have been tested for years. Me, huge winner.



Well you don't study 7 star so you don't know but we are very strong at throws and nasty ones at that. tie no winner

no tie there. You train weapons, stance work, strikes, kicks, forms, iron body, chu gung... the grappler is training grappling only. He wins.



So there is no defense against a ground fighter? That's all I hear from grapplers. Bull hockey pucks. It doesn't take practice it takes an inside willingness to do what it takes to hurt someone with dirty tactics. Another thing you guys don't think about is we don't have to hit you in the face we hit anything and everything that's within reach. We love nice meaty guys like grapplers, I've ended fights without even making a head shot. you may think you won that one I think I did. NO tie I won.

not saying there's no defense. However, I've been piched, bitted, had pressure oints attempted, been hit, etc. to no avail - pain compliance is never the answer. I did win.


How many fights have you been in or seen that you actually thought the other guys wanted to kill? It's almost always a **** contest and someone wants to save face so they fight.

In clubs and such yes. other than that, no. I personally stopped a guy from beating the he11 out of a paper boy. There was no face involved - the guy had money and looked like a victim.

Depending on the person depends on how much they are willing to inflict harm on the other person and how many people are involved in the fight. I agree with a post made earlier. While your grinding your crotch into the guy your fighting on the ground his friends are treating you like a soccer ball (while standing up might i add).. I win

those same guys are attacking you and one blind sided you. you are now in the ground with no knowledge of ground grappling. you lose.


I almost vomited when I read this, I just spent the last few days getting insulted repeatedly by so called tough guys on the bullshido forum. Not once did I disrespect an individual or style, and I was called every name in the book with out inteligance and like I said if you were in front of me you wouldn't be saying it. Period. I highly doubt mantis practitioners hound you day and night about your training saying it's useless. i win

c'mon...bullshido? you're asking for it there. it's a bunch of guys looking for people to talk about. you can change that though - enter a McThrowdown.

I do get hounded quite a bit. Matter of factly, recently we were in a nearby pizza place. the guy behind the counter asked us if we trained there and we said yes and talked to him about it. He went on to say that he trained in a standup style and wouldn't get taken to the ground, so he had no need for grappling. It happens quite a bit. I win.

To end this very long question answer. I in no way have anything personal against 7 star. We've had are arguments before and at least he gives inteligent points to his side.

agreed. I enjoy your posts - you give us something to talk about, and without it degenrating like so many other threads do.

But my initial rant was directed to the fools out there who come out with nothing but verbal insults instead of knowledge. I know these guys have nothing to offer but I'm human and get sucked into the debate. Oh well.

lol, that's what happens when you visit a forum like bullshido...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Exactly unix, which was part of my original rant. That is the attitude I got from these cats all because mr ENFORCER put the vids on another forum. Which I don't mind because I'll back up my own vids. Problem was he put others vids on there as well and people were mixing the vids up and saying that my stuff was inferior with those vids as examples. I agree that makes them very ignorant. Hence my post.

as with 7 star we will never ever agree as a whole but we do agree on some points. It's all relative.

enforcer is a troll. he posts on other forums as enforcer and used to post here as unmatchable, but I banned him. he now posts here as enforcer as well.

when he first started posting as unmatchable, we caught him using our posts word for word as his own on another forum. In some cases he would say he was quoting it, but in other cases, he just copied it word for word, as if it was his thought.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet

I do not understand how anyone can speak about any other system unless they know it. Just like anything else. How can I speak about programming embedded devices when all I do all day is UNIX systems and database programming, ya know. I may think I understand, but I really can not unless I actually do it.

forget unix. linux 0wn5 j00! what type of database programming do you do?

[shirkers1]

by the way I forgot the smiley faces on the "I win Tie stuff". That was suppose to be funny. There really is no real winner period. I f you are a good fighter you do what it takes to win, whether on the ground or standing up.

I didn't choose the whole bullshido thing, vids were posted on there and all I did was try to explain what was going on in the vids and it was a never ending insult fest. Like I said other than you that's all I've gotten from modern ground thinkers.

oh well I'm a grown boy I can take it .

exactly with the enforcer thing. So the guy ripps on my stuff then goes and uses my words to answer questions in another thread. Ass clown.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
by the way I forgot the smiley faces on the "I win Tie stuff". That was suppose to be funny.

see? It's too easy to get sucked in!!

There really is no real winner period. I f you are a good fighter you do what it takes to win, whether on the ground or standing up.

agreed.



exactly with the enforcer thing. So the guy ripps on my stuff then goes and uses my words to answer questions in another thread. Ass clown.

so he did it to you too, huh? focking retard.

[ekaltenborn]

actually seven star i pretty much agree with unix. Unless you have trained in a system; its pretty hard to make an intelligent comparison.

Im sure you are a good longfist person, and a good grappler...

maybe you are an expert with 13 years.... maybe not... i have never trained with you... but hell man,,,,, dont pick on unix because he asked an intelligent question....

Is he not right that you cant compare it unless you understand it?.... you yourself said you had an idea of what mantis is about... Im here to tell you that if you square off with someone at the level as shirkers or myself, you better haev a hell of allot more than an idea....yalk about getting ktfo.......

Im not trying to pick a fight.... Im just saying that you shouldnt compare two systems... when atleast one of them, your understanding is prettty limited.

[unixfudotnet]

I program many things and know Oracle, PostgreSQL, and (unfortunately) MySQL.

I can't really talk about what I am currently working on, but anything that needs to be integrated in any fashion to a database, I can do, in pretty much any popular language (I know like 14 programming languages).

UNIX and Linux programming, heh. Linux is UNIX-ish enough. Mostly work with Linux and *BSD.

If you have specific questions, I am sure I can answer them.

And no, I do not do php and mysql, I refuse to as they are a crappy easy solution that newbies take up, and it has seriously gotten out of hand, heh. Even if this forum is written in it, it still is inferior to most other alternatives.

anywho, PM me with anything else