Daoist Reversion Theories“¹—Ç’m

[Ka]

I hesitate to post this here but I am searching for all perspectives.
So Daoism and Theories of Reversion(reverting to...)
Referencing the DDJ section 80
in relation to ZiranŽ©‘R(nature/spontaneity)and Deúº (virtue)
Revert to what exactly,simplicity? Dao“¹?
How can such reversion occur within Society?
Social Moral Policy = ?
All morsels of thought greatly appreciated.

[BAI HE]

Bodiharma's "Blood Sermon" is a good start. Buddhist? hehehehehehehehehe

I prefer the Red Pine translations. Look "Red Pine" up on Amazon for his other translations.

At times Bodiharma's writings may seem to veer toward "conduct" in a changing world, rather than detachment, but it remains a great read.

Red Pine's translation of the DDj or TTC is first rate IMO. He includes commentary on each passage from other scholars through each passage as well.

[Ka]

Thanks Baihe, will follow that up.

[SPJ]

I think you mean how to go back to the way or the natural way.

There are several things. It will be a long story to tell.

1) Personal conducts, If you are tired, you sleep. If you want to work out then work out. Follow your nature.

If you are sleepy, rest and do not keep on working.

2) Personal goals. If you pass the exam, fine. If not, there will be another exam next year, just take a rest and then go back to study more on the areas you are not good. No need to be angry or take pains in the "failures"

3) The recognition of the time (Tien Shi). There is time for everything. The summer and the winter etc. If it is your time to win, it is your time. If it is not, it is useless to "enforce" or "expect" a win.

4) Relationships with others (Ren He). Always cultivate that. Treat others as you like to be treated. Keep your words and be trustworthy.

5) Cultivate the conditions to win or achieve your goal. Or avoid the opposites. (Di Li).

A society built on people with these conducts or thinking maybe the most harmonious one and most successful.

[SPJ]

De is the character or virtue of a person.

Such as Xin Yi He Ping Zhong Xiao Ren Ai.

These are virtues good personally and good for a society in general.

The military has Wu De.

The merchant has San De.

The politician has De, too.

On and on.

Sort of ethic codes. Codes of honors etc.

If there is no mutual agreement of certain conducts, there will be chaos.

[SPJ]

The main reason Dao De Jing was written during the Warring States period 2500 years ago is this.

All the little kings are fighting for expansion of lands and wealths.

They only have "personal interests/profits" (Li) in their minds.

The idea spreaded down to the ministers. They are fighting each other.

The idea spreaded down to the families (Jia's). They are fighting among themself.

This pretty much tells the story of 1000 years under weak Zhou Wang.

Until one day, Qin Shi Huang ended all the divisions and fightings.

Li was the reason Dao and De were borned as antidotes.

San Xia Jiao Xiang Li. (everybody does things according to what is it in for him)

That is another reason that no self (non dualism) Buddhism spread in China over 2000 years ago, too.

Phew, I am cramming a lot.

[Ka]

Thanks for the replys Spj

Originally posted by SPJ
I think you mean how to go back to the way or the natural way.

1) Personal conducts, If you are tired, you sleep. If you want to work out then work out. Follow your nature.

If you are sleepy, rest and do not keep on working.

How do you see this placed into Social Policy?I understand many take the writings of the DDJ on a indivdiual basis but others look at it from a Leadership base.
Some of what you have referenced doesn't seem to be directly related to the DDJ.Could you post any references to tranlations.

Originally posted by SPJ
5) Cultivate the conditions to win or achieve your goal. Or avoid the opposites. (Di Li).

Interesting I had always seen it as Win or achievement plays little importance in the concepts of WuweiÎÞΪ.In opposite do you mean cultivate the conditions to lose?To cultivate would be to have a purposefull action?

[SPJ]

I will try to get an English copy of DDJ before I can reference to the sentence.

Over the years, there were many scholars interpreting DDJ in different contexts.

What I heard was (meaning legends) Sun Tzu favorite books are Zhou Yi (book of change) and Dao De Jing.

Dao De Jing is a book to train or cultivate character of a soldier (Zi Bin) according to Sun Tzu. (legends)

Yes, Wu wei means do nothing to "change". Whatever comes comes.

On the other hand, it also mean do things not to "harm" the nature of the environment and people.

A government places less tax and fewer conscription of labor and soldiering. So that people may rest, study, and contribute to economic. and not too many wars.

This is saying to all the rulers in the middle kingdoms at the time.

[mantis108]

Extremely interesting and great question.

Hinduism, Buddhism, and Daoism all share something in common. They are mystic disciplines. They are meant to be experienced intuitively. That's the reason why meditation or introspection is highly emphasized in their corpus. But more importantly these disciplines are meant to "educate" [re:awaken] the person. Awaken to what? The awareness of the 4th Dimension is pretty central to all of them. Althought the langauages and lessons vary in cultures, they are basically along the same train of thoughts. Hinduism uses the parable of "Churning the milke ocean at the beginning of time" to illustrate the concepts; while Buddha expounded on Dukha (suffering). Believe it or not, suffering does directly relate to time. There are abundant references between the relationship of Dao and Time. One thing of note is that non of these discipline actually said what time is or is not. It remains to be experienced via the help of the lessons. Regardless of discipline, awareness of time and the experience of it is at the heart of the study.

Time to the untrained is often the foe or obstacle. Daoists start problem solving with Wuwei which I would roughly describe as "Effortless Dynamic Balance between chaos and harmony". This effortlessness can only be achieved through the realization that time is in fact not linear in nature. When a person realizes the true nature of time, he can let go of the self and become one with IT. This allows us to gain insight into the Divine purpose.

Imagine that a nation of people who are capable of this. Now I think you can understand the benefit. But then not all folks have access to this form of education either mentally or physically. Sounds elitist perhaps? Unfortunately, it is the truth. Can we facilitate that yes, but would we? Not really, simply because in politics, the P stands for pirority which is self intersets oriented. Today's politicians and so-called statesmen are but bottom feeding creatures; adding to the problem, time is perhaps the most expensive commodity (another politicians' favor chip) in modern day human experience. Shouldn't be that way, but it is. So...

Sorry about the rant. Hope I am making sense here.

Mantis108

[Ka]

Thanks for the comments Mantis
I think many here are missing the interrelation/interdependence? of De(virtue) to dao and concepts of wuwei and ziran.
Wang Bi translation of the DDJ focuses largely on de as he calls it profoundly internalised virtue.
"virtue is the power behind all things potential"(in relation to Sec 51)
"this honoring of the Dao and this esteening of virtue,none are ordered to do so, yet it always happens spontaneously"(sec 51
Ziran (spontaneous) action is only a product of wuwei (nonpurposfull action) if it is produced by one of profoundly internalised virtue.

As you said it is a hard task to place this in any education system,but then what chance has this of appearing in any polictician?

[SPJ]

All religions or philosophies are based on knowing the nature of life and everything.

It is the understanding of how the nature works. How can we work harmoniously with other people and the nature.

Dao or way is the way of the nature.

Belief is to follow that and the only way.

Different religions are different paths/vehicles to the same final destination.

De is a agreed set of ways how people interact to the best benefit of everyone.

Politicians, laws and religions will found their principles on the greatest benefits of every one and not a certain interest group.

For example, there is a marsh area that supports birds and other wild life. Daoists respect the nature as they are. Buddhists respect life of all forms. Both will let it be.

A businessman or developer thinks about a shopping mall or a hotel with a amazing view, or apartment complexes.

Politician thinks about city revenue or tax the development will bring.

The environmentalists think there is a delicate eco-system at work. If we upset it, there will be disastrous repercussions in the weather, waste purification, etc.

The question is always that what shall we do to the greatest benefits of everything or how to bring about the harmonies between the heaven, people and the earth.

That is the Dao.

De and any other virtues or teaching are merely pointing to the directions.

If we as a people fit into the nature in harmony with everything else;

Or we have our ways and destroy other people, and everything else in the process.

[mantis108]

Thus we have the formula of the relationship between Dao and De ...

Dao=De X constant

where the constant is Wuwei X Wuwei (Ziran). So, we have

Dao=De x Ziran?

Hence the roots of Ziran is Wuwei?

But then that would make De a function of Dao which is my understanding in the first place.

Seriously, politicans are but products of today's education systems which have greater interest in building a productive memeber of society than crafting a better person. BTW, polictical science is about balance of power mainly. They might be a little bit too intelligent for their own good but they are certain not wise in any way, form or shape. Knowledge and wisdom are after all different entities. They might think or feel that they do the world a favor by leaving monumental legacies (states, cities, constitutions, policies, etc...). These cherished "efforts/merits" of theirs are but residual energy signatures (Ye). Great for the masses or the "flocks" perhaps. In both Buddhists and Daoists eyes, these are but major obstacles to enlightenment. Nei Sheng Wai Huang (internally a Holy person and externally a benevolent ruler) is every Daoist's personal dilemma [not that there is really a choice ultimately]. Either case, you'll need a real person (Zhen Ren) beyond all constructs not a productive member of society - a construct within a construct.

Lao Tze's supposed advice for Confucius was that "do away with your pride and intention and you would be close to Dao." Now even a model teacher couldn't quite grasp Dao, what chance we mere mortals have?

Regards

Mantis108

PS Thanks for sharing SPJ

[Ka]

Originally posted by SPJ
All religions or philosophies are based on knowing the nature of life and everything.

It is the understanding of how the nature works. How can we work harmoniously with other people and the nature.

Dao or way is the way of the nature.

Well this is certainly a common approach to Daoist thought.
I feel many seem to think this connection to Dao and nature? through the translation of the word ziran which in the modern context refers to nature.However within the DDJ it is used in its older meaning of spontaniety.If we look at the translation of nature and look at nature itself we find many things
1 Nature is not harmonious,its chaotic
2 Nature includes the human presence
If we are to be chaotic arn't we well and truly already there.

Originally posted by SPJ
De is a agreed set of ways how people interact to the best benefit of everyone.

This sounds a bit like you are confusing it with Kongzi's Li(standards of moral conduct)or yi (justice)
De is virtue, now how that virtue manifests is of considerable difference whether you subscribe to Laozi or Kongzi work.

Originally posted by SPJ
For example, there is a marsh area that supports birds and other wild life. Daoists respect the nature as they are. Buddhists respect life of all forms. Both will let it be..

I think this is a bad representation of both Daoist and Buddhist thought.
There is much in the texts to suggest that Daoist in particular would weigh differing persceptives along with outcomes in order to facilate wuwei(non purposefull action)which gives people somewhat of a paradox straight away.

Originally posted by SPJ
The question is always that what shall we do to the greatest benefits of everything or how to bring about the harmonies between the heaven, people and the earth.
That is the Dao..If we as a people fit into the nature in harmony with everything else;

Unfortunatly I don't feel the concept of Dao has an equity clause.I don't feel Daoism is after the greatest of anything,IMHO harmony of everything is not Dao,fiting into nature is also not Dao. If we are to use the word nature (which as I said is not a refelection of ziran) then how are we not already part of nature or Dao for that matter.These concept do not act indepently of human presence.If anything we (humans) are interrelated and interdependent(= unity),a point that I feel is at a base of Daoism and other philosophies.

[Ka]

Originally posted by mantis108

But then that would make De a function of Dao which is my understanding in the first place.
True but unfortunately too many people simply fall back into the pharse everything comes from Dao,without explanation of what relation any thing has to anthing.

these are but major obstacles to enlightenment. Nei Sheng Wai Huang (internally a Holy person and externally a benevolent ruler) is every Daoist's personal dilemma [not that there is really a choice ultimately]. Either case, you'll need a real person (Zhen Ren) beyond all constructs not a productive member of society - a construct within a construct.

Hence my staying (and this thread thankfully) away from issues of individual self reflection and concentrating on elements of Daoist policy in relation to leadership and government.
Please carry on everyone
Next Q
Zhuangzi txts seem to be more intergrated with his time(in that he answers and debates topic within Confucian txt)yet seem to appeal even more to relativist thought? How do you think ZZ take on Social Policy would manifest?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

There is no "purposeless action" (WuWei).. it is the purpose that warrants consideration..

Tao is the store-house, the source.. an endless bounty of potential without purpose.. it is without form, shape or mass, but.. without it there is no form, shape or mass.. it is everything without "being" everything..

Basic life purpose.. to exist, to experience.. so there is purpose in all things..

Virtue.. misunderstood.. a set of arbitrary values with design and purpose.. a control device for consensus of social order..

Nature.. spontaneous random order.. spontaneous: of itself it is so.. random order: like the veins in a leaf or the grain in wood..

Nature (spontaneous random order) is the model.. in a perfect world.. virtue is designed to allow for maximum balance of natural experience in the imperfect balance of social relationships..

Tao.. is the way things "are".. Virtue is the way we want things to be.. (there is a subtle conflict, here)..

Life is a delicate balance of Tao (nature: spontaneous random order).. and the necessity to mingle with society.. is humanity's creations (ie: buildings, roads, dams, etc..) any less its nature (Tao) than a beaver's dam or a bird's nest or a herd's trail their nature?.. The simplification is internal, it is the realization that we cannot be contrary to Tao, we can only affect the balance of chaos and harmony.. we will swing between chaos and harmony like a boatman uses the currents and winds to make his way.. wisdom is in the awareness of life's currents and winds.. and, what we intend our journey to be..

Be well..