Daoist Reversion Theories“¹—Ç’m

[PangQuan]

The many refferances to the state of a new born child are one of the best analogies for what is meant by returning. Water was quite often used for this same purpose. When a newborn babe does anything, it is simply what nature has imbued it with the inate knowledge to do. Such as water, stab it and it parts perfectly for your blade, drink it and it provides all that it is capable, pour it down the side of a cliff and it will join with nature as it does with any action. Remember when reading Taoist text, not to read the entire book all in a row. Read one chapter/passage, meditate on this until you feel you have discovered something from within, then later continue on to the next. Later return to the passage in which you have learned from, there is alway more personal insight that can be gleamed from it. This of course I am sure many of you already know, but for those who are just begining thier studies of Taosim, this is the traditional method in which to read the text. Do not do the common western method, by just reading the whole book all at once, like a novel. It is not fiction, it is not a story. It requires deep thought to find your own awakening through tools presented by the ancient Taoist adepts. I could ramble all day, so I wont.

[Ka]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Why? Why do i need a label? I seldom let the "label" define the situation.. things are what they are, labels only confine the experience to preconceived notions.

I think you miss the point of my post,Perhaps you might feel happier with the ER label as I am contending that the ER theory which you place over Daoist theory isn't quite the same.
Which lead to the reference to ziran nature, natural, the natural state of humans.
I am saying that the apporach that many take on towards Daoism (return to nature) is a misinterpretation.

I think you would enjoy(if you haven't already) The Retifcation of Names by Xunzi, and important work which influenced many debates of its time and deals with the apporach to language and names as you bring forward.

[Ka]

Originally posted by PangQuan
The many refferances to the state of a new born child are one of the best analogies for what is meant by returning.

Section 55 is an example of the importance of virtue within the human.
Eg: Bi W through Lynn tranlates the first line
"one who has profoundly internalized virtue is comparable to the infant"
Bi notes that through the PIV the one does not comit offense against others and is free from craving or desire.
Like many of the sections,it is a great help to read as many commentaries on each as possible as the veiws and interpretations differ greatly.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Ka: It is not so much that i miss the point as our points differ at conception.. it seems that you approach this subject, and probably most others, from a scholarly perspective..

I think you would enjoy(if you haven't already) The Retifcation of Names by Xunzi, and important work which influenced many debates of its time and deals with the apporach to language and names as you bring forward.

Though i quite understand the implication of the work, i find the approach a bit sterile, a bit formal for this particular subject.. Now, it may emerge that the human's natural inclinations are toward the cultivation of "virtue" as a tool for harmony and survival, but formalization and codification are essentially contrary to the original Taoist perspectives.. ritualistic and formal Taoist schools are second and later generation's attempts to standardize the complete freedom of the originators of this school of thought..

The problem i am concerned with is the definition of "virtue", what is it.. by what standards is it applied and is it a universal concept, or a cultural code? Any great philosophy should transcend its culture and be applicable to the affairs of mankind at large, such as the work "Tao Te Ching".. (yes, i am aware of "Te" in the title)..

I think you miss the point of my post,Perhaps you might feel happier with the ER label as I am contending that the ER theory which you place over Daoist theory isn't quite the same.

I am happy with my situation as i perceive it.. i did not go looking for a "label", i simply studied many philosophies and belief systems and concluded that my own beliefs most closely aligned with Taoist thought, i did not become Taoist.. and, i find by reading Taoist Classics that the themes are consistent, and consistently convoluted by those seeking to formalize or codify it into a "system".. in contemplating the value of Taoist thought i first looked at the various "schools" of Taoism and quickly noted their perspective was limited to a particular interest or result and lacked the spontaneity and freshness of its heritage.. then my quest for understanding led me to stories and writings of Taoism's progenitors, here i find a cultivated Bohemian existence with a sincere respect for the value of natural order.. that value, contrary to your contended misconceptions, is an exceptional model for individual, social and governmental prosperity and harmony.. I do not wish to be defined by a "label or title", my only assertion is that Taoism, as i understand it, most closely conforms to my own beliefs.. ER, as you suggest, may suit "you" as a definition of "my" beliefs, but.. i choose to avoid the complications of contemplations of lables.. (call me what you choose, if it works for you).. as for me, i am a being simply trying to make my way through this physical experience without being a burden to it.. and, Taoist thought seems to help..

Be well..

[PangQuan]

TaiChiBob,

Good post, your feelings and experiences with Taoism closley relate to my own, I understand where you are coming from. I think that the many systemized schools of Taoism is sort of contradictory personally. It is not meant to be labeled or systemized, only realized and followed. I do not have any copies of Lao Tsu or Chuang Tzu with me so I forget who said it but it goes a bit like this; "It is called Tao for lack of a better name, sometimes it is simply called the great." I think this, when meditated upon closely, has a lot to do with the current discussion. I also would not consider myself a strict Taoist, although many of the themes and thought patterns that Taoist studies promote are a large part of my personal psychi. If I were forced to claim a label for a belief system, I probably would choose Taoism, simply because of its ability to leave such a large opening for other forms of faith based belief.

"Live long and prosper" ~ Mr. Spock

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

PangQuan: Precisely, you have stated a very important point of Taoist thought..

I probably would choose Taoism, simply because of its ability to leave such a large opening for other forms of faith based belief.

Taoism is a philosophy that accommodates most other beliefs.. it is not a religion.. it doesn't ask for money, it doesn't offer salvation (except from the mundane) and its rewards are easily attainable by the common practitioner of its simple beliefs.. What it does do is offer the aspiring Taoist tools for a richer, fuller life experience.. beyond that, the individual finds their own peace with whatever "religion" (or lack thereof) they choose..

Given that there are Taoist practitioners with long and colorfull histories in the philosophy, it is reasonable that they would offer guidance to the aspirant.. but, usually, it is enigmatic and urges the aspirant to have a particular experience from which they will derive their own understanding of Tao.. to the degree that these experiences are so similarly interpreted with such limited prejudice, Taoism's philosophy is self-revealing and self-verifying..

I have visited several "Taoist Temples" and religious centers.. they are antithetical to their own philosophy, by my understanding.. formal robes, rituals and a condescending attitude toward the outsider or one not of their persuasion or of their particular school.. a devisive policy.

But, in the end, it is ALL Tao.. simply the "way" things ARE..

Be well..

[PangQuan]

Fully. The essence is well presented by the mysterious Lao Tzu himself, many believe he was many different people, some believe he was so and so, and some believe he was another. There are many theories as to who he was, but when it comes down to it he was simply Tao. Leaving no trace as to who he truly was, in essence not claiming credit for anything he left mankind, is a great example as to what following Tao represents. To leave such a mark on humanity as a whole, yet at the same time not even leaving a real trace as to who you were, now that is sagehood. We can only hope to aspire to such high levels of self realization.

[Ka]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

it seems that you approach this subject, from a scholarly perspective..

Yes... and...

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

Though i quite understand the implication of the work, i find the approach a bit sterile, a bit formal for this particular subject..

I am thinking that you haven't read Xunzi's work but can only say that an understanding of other chinese philosophers,history and soieo cultural elements can only aid in interpretation of concepts found in Daodejing.I'm afraid I don't really understand the comment on sterile or formal apporach.

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

The problem i am concerned with is the definition of "virtue", what is it.. by what standards is it applied and is it a universal concept, or a cultural code?

Without a doubt this will be a long debated topic within Daoist writing praticularly with the relatively recent discoveries of the Goudian Laozi.

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

Any great philosophy should transcend its culture and be applicable to the affairs of mankind at large, such as the work "Tao Te Ching".. (yes, i am aware of "Te" in the title)..
I am happy with my situation as i perceive it..

I think you could even argue that Daoism and Buddism have taken on "Western" variations due to soicological exposure.

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

then my quest for understanding led me to stories and writings of Taoism's progenitors, here i find a cultivated Bohemian existence with a sincere respect for the value of natural order.. that value, contrary to your contended misconceptions, is an exceptional model for individual, social and governmental prosperity and harmony

As you have indicated in most of your posts this is simply your opinion.Thats great that you state it,perhaps consider other alternative offerings in the tradition of constant change/reaccessment that your adopted philosophy holds dear.

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

I do not wish to be defined by a "label or title", my only assertion is that Taoism, as i understand it, most closely conforms to my own beliefs..

Yep,your dwelling long and hard on the label issue(made only as a off hand remark),needless to say there would be little practicality in discussions without labels. As you indicate you associate with the ideas of Daoism that you have been exposured to, with a particular emphasis highlighted (for numerous reasons). I contend that with expansion of PRC into the "West", the general emphasis considered Daoist will change, furthermore through greater archaeological research(not only of what we consider Daoist writing but rather Chinese Philosophical texts in general, Daoist current perception will continue to be altered largely around the concepts of De virtue and its relation to human nature and the overriding unity of all things.
Which of these formats are closer to a "True" version will as now depend on various elements of an individual or groups background.However the exposure to all versions can only aid in a choice for one to assoicate with.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Which of these formats are closer to a "True" version will as now depend on various elements of an individual or groups background.However the exposure to all versions can only aid in a choice for one to assoicate with.

There you have it.. Taoism, or the aspiration to harmonize with the natural ebb and flow of life, is actually the underlying principle that is interpreted by groups or individuals according to their experiences and cultural influences.. an Oriental Taoist and a western Taoist may differ in their interpretations while holding to basic principles.. Assertions of "correctness" by any single perspective is contrary to the nature of Tao.. it is obvious by the varied perspectives that Tao exceeds its own definition.. i hope i am not asserting my perspective as the "correct" one, only that it conforms to my current understandings.. surely, i am open to alternative perspectives, it is my nature.. whenever i find that other perspectives are contrary to my own, i try to understand why and how that perspective can improve my experience.. given appropriate experimentation and finding less favor with an alternative perspective, i simply log it for future reference and modification should additional evidence support its merits..

The more we try to ritualize and define Taoism, the more we confine it.. yet, we begin the whole experience by accepting that the Tao is limitless.. "the Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao".. wisdom.

So, in order to move this philosophy forward, we must communicate experiences and favored paths to future generations for their experiental investigation.. my personal preference leans to the story telling style of Chuang Tzu, parables that incite and inspire others to have similar experiences or find similar conclusions from their own experiences.. i am inspired by the collection of analogies attributed to Lao Tzu, the Tao Te Ching.. stories and myths of the 8 immortals give us some insight into early Taoist experiences and cultural interpretations.. i tend to favor the experiential approach as opposed to the codified structure, but to each his/her own.. In retrospect, i have been too defensive of my own preferences, i apologize.. but, when one finds such harmony and depth in this life, the desire to share can distort the validity of individual preference regardless of the source, it's ALL Tao..

Much of the Taiji and martial arts having, as their foundation, Taoist claims, seem to be more open and experiential, they seem to evolve and accept change as contributory to the dynamic of their existence.. i like the principle of "preserve the old, explore the new".. and, i fear being confined to ritual, word and form, they are excellent resources, but.. i see them as foundations for further exploration into the Tao as a way of living.. i find favor with the disciplines of Taiji and QiGong as the results are observable and beneficial, and, given the required devotion to the discipline(s) there is a consistency of experience.. this consistency tends to break-down at the communication level, at the level where we contrive to stimulate similar experiences through dialogue.. some of my best learning experiences were gained through wordless (due to language barriers) training.. i could only imitate the form being demonstrated, the results were individually similar among the attendees.. a decent indicator of the value of the lesson..

Right? Wrong? who really knows? i sense that the Tao is unconcerned with it, there's really no difference.. My new T-Shirt design includes the phrase "and sanctuary for wayward Taoists", in as much as we are ALL wayward Taoists, to the degree we deviate from our natural existence..... but, isn't that deviation indication of our "natural" inclinations? Yikes, i've made my brain itch again....

Be well......