taoists: letting go of ego and petty desires without killing basic joy

[Zenshiite]

While this may be true in some instances, it is equally untrue in others.. there are women that actually enjoy this form of erotica, enjoy making money by fulfilling some desire/need for a particular segment of society.. while i agree that whenever harm is manifest in the situation it is not in anyone's best interest and should be controlled.. i must also balance my perceptions with the understanding that other situations can achieve some level of harmony.. i simply fail to understand how people structure their thought processes with only one side of a situation represented..

Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend. In any case, even though some women involved in the production of pornography(and i'll agree that this is the case with most today) enjoy it... there is still the harm that the material itself is causing within the psyches of the viewers. Your stubborness is causing you to ignore fact.

So while you think i'm only taking into account one side, i'm examining ALL sides. Very few people can come away from pornography without a fundamental psychological change. Especially if they are regular views of such material.

hat no one is right or wrong (no spin needed).. that each situation differs according to the players.. that while there is a social morallity conducive to social harmony, its place is in the affairs of the social mechanizations.. that in the private settings of consenting adults social control is not necessary.. and i find it distressing whenever society and its representatives feel compelled to govern individuals freedoms when "no harm" can be demonstrated beyond contrary ideologies..

i am in no way advocating society and its representatives stepping into someone's home and telling them what to do. That is on them and the filth they accumulate in their own souls, not my business. However, that does not change that fact that most people manifest the results of their private habits into a social setting. Thus you have pornography readily available on the web... many websites not requiring age verification and using themes from children's entertainment. There's "Harry Potter" websites, there used to be a website with a White House theme. i won't even get into sexual habits other than pornography right now.

Thus, i am recommending a change in habit for the health of one's mind body and soul. If you choose to ignore it, fine. However, that does not change the fact that i am speaking to real risks to one's overall health. The psychological effects of porn-viewing are inseperable from one's social perspective, however. Maybe you should check out some books about pornography and its effects rather than engaging in endless justification for just about anything.

Peace,
Dawud

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend. In any case, even though some women involved in the production of pornography(and i'll agree that this is the case with most today) enjoy it... there is still the harm that the material itself is causing within the psyches of the viewers. Your stubborness is causing you to ignore fact.

"Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend".. this is a blanket statement that is signature of extremism.. Exhibitionism has many many aspects, one of which can be called "porn", and.. even then, that statement neglects to account for many situations that can be contrary to the assertion.. "Your stubborness is causing you to ignore fact.".. no, i am simply examining many facts, addressing them as well as i can (see previous posts where i agree that there is some harm and should be controlled).. Adversely, you assert baseless remarks regarding stubborness and ignoring of "fact".. on the otherhand, i am allowing for several conditions to exist in harmony, those that can (and do) have a healthy psyche and are capable of viewing sensual material without fundamental damage (allowing for the broad fundamental definition of "porn").. and, allowing that there is obviously some "porn" that is simply offensive to human nature, degrading to participants at any level, and with no redeeming social value.. to which i say eliminate that stuff and make it so prohibitively punitive as to eliminate the majority of its potential (we will never completely control human nature, no matter how deviant)..

Thus, i am recommending a change in habit for the health of one's mind body and soul. If you choose to ignore it, fine. However, that does not change the fact that i am speaking to real risks to one's overall health. The psychological effects of porn-viewing are inseperable from one's social perspective, however. Maybe you should check out some books about pornography and its effects rather than engaging in endless justification for just about anything.

First, you needn't recommend a "change in habit" for me.. i have no interest in "porn".. it is notable, however, that you seem to have good insights as to where to find "porn" (ie: "Thus you have pornography readily available on the web... many websites not requiring age verification and using themes from children's entertainment. There's "Harry Potter" websites, there used to be a website with a White House theme.").. Oh, and i take great care of the many aspects of my health.. Second you toss around the word "fact" as if you are its sole proprietor, i will determine my own set of conditions and standards for truth, thanks.. "Maybe you should check out some books about pornography and its effects rather than engaging in endless justification for just about anything." i don't endlessly justify anything, i offer alternative perspectives.. my interest isn't "porn", its enticing people to engage in open-minded dialogue.. and, frankly, if i wanted a sermon there's plenty of that elsewhere.. "endless justification for just about anything.".. Now, there's a standard political tactic, if you say i said it, then others might believe it came from me.. it did not, it is your own perspective used in an attempt to negatively prejudice a message that doesn't support your fundamental views..

As i have stated, i delight in open-minded intelligent dialogue.. i welcome alternative perspectives.. but, i am not amused by people that twist and misrepresent that which i have posted.. To be clear, my reasoning in posting on this thread was to challenge fixed and stagnant notions of the definition of "porn", to entice people to examine other perspectives.. as it evolved, the thread took on certain fundamentalist characteristics, and i hoped to open up dialogue that might illustrate the possibilities of moving toward a "middle ground", where common sense supercedes dogma.. (we may get there, yet).. BUT, in no way do i advocate hardcore "porn", destructive imagery or behavior, or that which can be easily identified as "filth".. and, it would be irresponsible to suggest that i do.. So, in closing, open-minded dialogue is welcome and can be productive.. but, sermonizing, soap-boxing, and dogmatic regurgatations diminish whatever value may be intrinsic to one's "core message"..

Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings...


This illustrates my main point.. who decided there are only four ways to eat Bejing Duck? it is the blind acceptance of dogma and authority that challenges the "core message".. the rituals may point one in an appropriate direction, but too often the rituals exclude other equally valid experiences.. what i suggest is that people evaluate messages and authorities with an open mind..

No, if you eat beijing ducks, you will find there are four major ways to eat it. You can find a different way, but it actually still falls in the four major ways.

It is not about ritual, it is about the core message. If you engage all aspect of the study, you will get a complete picture. It is about eating beijing duck in all of four ways and not just one way.

I'll use the good old elephant story.

three blind men try to determine what an elephant looks like.

each grab onto a part of the elephant. One man grab on to the leg. one man grab on to the tusk, one man grab on to its tail.

their observations were different. their conception of the elephant were different. all three was only paritally correct. if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture. If they held onto their view, their conception are all wrong. but, if one blind man were to go and touch all aspect of the elephant, then he will get a complete picture.

Just because there is a lean, it doesn't mean it rejects other information. Just because a person has a lean doesn't make his view invalid. The debate is over the core message. It is objecting to a presentation which seem missed the core message.

Even if there's no lean, it doesn't insure the person realize the core message. so, the lean is irrelevant, it is whether the person realize the core message.

It is about balance. It is about seeking the truth.

You are free to challenge my views of the core message. but, until you define what you think is the core message and outline it. It is a bit difficult to discuss. so far, I gather that: do what is natural but do no harm. Is this your view?

since we are talking about open mind.

what do you view as porn? what do you think is porn's damage to society? do you think it is a problem? do you think there's harm?

How do you think people should deal with it?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

WanderingMonk: It's not so much that i "object" to the presentation.. i just find that an invitation to consider other perspectives less offensive than poor characterizations of those with differing views.. as you said:

their observations were different. their conception of the elephant were different. all three was only paritally correct. if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture. If they held onto their view, their conception are all wrong. but, if one blind man were to go and touch all aspect of the elephant, then he will get a complete picture.

So, "if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture." I hope to exchange views, since it is unlikely that few if any of us will have the opportunity to have a "complete" Taoist experience. Oh, and just like "porn", there are certain parts of the elephant i simply don't need to touch .. but, i need to touch as much as possible to get the most complete picture.. or, exchange views with "consenting adults"..

Be well..

[Buddy]

"it is notable, however, that you seem to have good insights as to where to find "porn"

What a stupid and childish cheap shot Bobby. It is the sort of passive/aggresive response that I suspected would crawl its way out of you at some point.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Buddy: Really? after the persecution of others i have witnessed by you and others.. you find that to be noteworthy? (oh, and it was conceived as an illustration of just how easily things can be mistaken, like "intention").. if the communication was intended for someone else, Zenshiite, and you find it necessary to enter and add your own inflamatory remarks into conversations that, while possibly a little edgy, are moving toward a "middle-ground".. where does that put you, Buddy? antagonistic? aggressive? or, simply a cheap shot of your own? Perhaps, if you let the dialogue continue between those parties actually engaged, you might witness all sides moving toward an understanding.. and, i have no quarrel with you, Buddy.. i hope we keep it that way..

Be well..

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

WanderingMonk: It's not so much that i "object" to the presentation.. i just find that an invitation to consider other perspectives less offensive than poor characterizations of those with differing views.. as you said:

So, "if they exchange their views, they might get a complete picture." I hope to exchange views, since it is unlikely that few if any of us will have the opportunity to have a "complete" Taoist experience. Oh, and just like "porn", there are certain parts of the elephant i simply don't need to touch .. but, i need to touch as much as possible to get the most complete picture.. or, exchange views with "consenting adults"..

Be well..

you haven't answer my questions.


what do you view as porn? what do you think is porn's damage to society? do you think it is a problem? do you think there's harm?

How do you think people should deal with it?

if you don't tell us what your views are, how can there be a exchange of views?

[Zenshiite]

it is notable, however, that you seem to have good insights as to where to find "porn"

Cheap shot Bob, just as Buddy said.

This information is on the news from time to time. i hear it, i cite it.

Nice attempt to assassinate my character, though.

"Exhibitionism is not a healthy state of mind my friend".. this is a blanket statement that is signature of extremism.. Exhibitionism has many many aspects, one of which can be called "porn",

This is pretty silly, as Taoist sages have always been against exhibitionism. Showing off is contrary to modesty and humility. Sexual exhibitionism is probably one of the worst cases of exhibitionism.

Peace,
Dawud

[Buddy]

"you find that to be noteworthy? (oh, and it was conceived as an illustration of just how easily things can be mistaken, like "intention").. if the communication was intended for someone else, Zenshiite, and you find it necessary to enter and add your own inflamatory remarks into conversations that, while possibly a little edgy, are moving toward a "middle-ground".. where does that put you, Buddy? antagonistic? aggressive? or, simply a cheap shot of your own? "

Bull**** Bob. You thought you could get away with intimating that Zs took a particular interest in porn. Am I antagonistic and aggressive? Sure, I'm a martial artist. But I am honest and forthright about these possible shortcomings. You hide behind the veneer of "open mindnessness". Look at the last two responses, does that look like moving toward middle ground? I don't have a problem with honest and open aggression, but I despise this passive aggressive crap.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

If it is perceived as a cheap shot, i humbly apologize.. <bows respectfully>

Exhibitionism takes many forms, my point is that certain aspects of exhibitionism are healthy.. "porn" is not one of the healthy aspects..

Porn, my personal perspective: graphic depiction of sex acts, close-up views of sex acts without any redeeming dialogue or any attempt at artful expression.. texts that describe sex acts in a manner that degrades the inherent natural beauty of the subject.. text or scenes that imply violence is an acceptable aspect of making love..

Damage to society: Porn desensitizes people to the profound beauty and deep spiritual connection of one of natures greatest gifts.. it feeds an industry of undesirable characters that bend and abuse the system to their benefit and the detriment of others.. it can in some instances lead to violence and unrealistic expectations from women (and men), but.. it may also keep potential harm to the public within a certain "consenting" group.. it creates a false notion of general human relationships..

Yes, i believe there is harm from "porn" as i hve described it..

How should people deal with it? First, it should be regulated and taxed heavily, making it prohibitively expensive.. use the revenues to treat the sicknesses it fosters.. we know we can't eliminate it, so use it to deal with its own problems.. People should register as "porn" dealers, even to purchase it, this would create a database for likely suspects for local sex-crimes, etc.., it may even deter some folks..

Zenshiite: Again i apologize, i was only attempting to illustrate how easily unintended interpretations of simple statements can be conceived.. much the same as artful and well-produced depictions of sensuality can be cited as "porn".. We live in a society where certain fundamentalists will describe purely normal behavior as "porn" because it doesn't meet their standards or the standards of their faith..

Sexual exhibitionism is probably one of the worst cases of exhibitionism.

There's an arguement for that perspective, but a greater arguement for "macho" exhibitionism.. one where sex, war and domination are tools of self-identity.. you know the type that excuses unacceptable behavior as "a guy thing", etc...

All that being said, my point is that there is a place for artful and delicate public expressions of sensuality, it is not "porn".. it is a communication of respect and reverence for a basic human trait that deserves to expressed with a healthy openess.. treat it that way instead of lumping into a category that demonizes it and treats it like it is something dirty.. i believe it is the repressive attitudes that view all sensuality as "dirty" or "filth" or "porn" that help promote the concept of "porn"..

Be well..

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Buddy:

Am I antagonistic and aggressive? Sure, I'm a martial artist.

There, now.. this is exactly the problem.. you assume that a martial artist must be antagonistic and aggressive.. those types of people tend to incite conflict so they can demonstrate how "martial" they are.. that is the BS.. a decent MAist shows his training when it's needed, not in some quest for recognition.. and, to assume agression and antagonism is needed in a forum such as this is a fundamental misunderstanding of communication.. "passive-aggressive"? i am not familiar with your meaning as it applys to this issue.. if it is your intent to incite aggressive dialogue with me, peddle that load of crap elsewhere, i don't intend to be intimidated by you or anyone else.. so, you "despise this passive aggressive crap", thanks for sharing your phobias, but i'm really not interested in your personal issues.. We approach life differently, you and i.. suppose we just leave it at that.. it will serve us both well.

Be well..

[Buddy]

"There, now.. this is exactly the problem.. you assume that a martial artist must be antagonistic and aggressive.."

There you go again. No I don't. I was speaking about myself, not some hypothetical other.

"those types of people tend to incite conflict so they can demonstrate how "martial" they are.. "

Those "types"? Isn't that painting with a broad brush. Isn't everyone an individual who may or may act a certain way under varying cicumstances?

"a decent MAist shows his training when it's needed, not in some quest for recognition.."

By whose standard? Who gets to determine need? You?

""passive-aggressive"? i am not familiar with your meaning as it applys to this issue.. if it is your intent to incite aggressive dialogue with me, peddle that load of crap elsewhere, i don't intend to be intimidated by you or anyone else.. "

It is my intent to call you on it when you take this superior tone and then attack another under the guise of debate.

"If it is perceived as a cheap shot, i humbly apologize.. <bows respectfully>"

It was perceived as such because it WAS a cheap shot. And rather than sincerely apologize, you make it still the responsablity of the perceiver. THAT is passive/aggressive.

"so, you "despise this passive aggressive crap", thanks for sharing your phobias, but i'm really not interested in your personal issues.."

Bob you seem like a reasonably smart guy. But you persist in ignoring the meaning of words. Phobia means fear. I assure you I have no fear of your passive/aggressiveness. I've seen it before and just want to recognize it.

"We approach life differently, you and i.. suppose we just leave it at that.. it will serve us both well."

You have no idea how I approach life, nor I you. You only know how I approach you on this forum. You could have kept out of my issue with BL and Eggo but chose to add your smug and condescending tone to it. Reap what you sow.

[Zenshiite]

Bob...

You are speaking on what is academically called "erotica" and cited as such by sexologists as being socially acceptable.

Because of my religious interests i would then ask why erotica must be displayed publicly or even produced with actual people.

We are, however, speaking about pornography in the same way. Though i might paint it a tad broader by saying that any material using nudity to encourage promisciuity to be included. Playboy(the very title of the publication defines what it encourages) would be included in my consideration of pornography.

An ancient Taoist sexual alchemy book including illustrations of various positions, or even such a book today produced by any number of authors writing about the topic, i have absolutely not problem with.

The thing is, you and i both know that from the get-go GDA was (most likely)talking about his collection of sexually explicit material depicting graphic sex acts and close ups of penetration. Basically, you've been playing devil's advocate for something even you think is bad.

Peace,
Dawud

PS. Apology accepted.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

ok first im going to reply to some of the things that relate to me directly as otherwise i'll be thinking of them while posting about other things.

i hear what the people way back on page one were coming from with the getting older thing, but i dont think that's it. im not insulted by the notion in the least, as i certainly do have a lot of growing up to do, but i don't think that's part of what's been happening. i have had an interesting life and in some areas i grew up way to quick and in others ill probably never grow up at all, but either way im well familiar with it and im not sure if it factors in here. i could be wrong too.

i also heard a lot of talk about porn losing value as i sorted through what was important in my life. this has some truth to it i'm sure, but it wasn't really something i decided to do either. i certainly didn't sit down and start deleting porn in some weird moral masturbation thats for sure. but as i did sit down to it i simply found myself sifting the true goodness from the hordes of mpegs which i was just kinda afraid to delete. i did this until i turned a 12gig folder into a 4 gig folder (still plenty for ya vash). dropping a third of something in a short period of time might make it sound less important, and thats what i thought at first, but the weird thing is that as i find myself left with the best of my collection i tend to actually appreciate it more. i want to say that i have learned to truly enjoy my porn by learning to let it go, but that sounds too much like im quoting a taoist cliche straight from a hippy book and quoting a taoist hippy on the subject of appreciating your porn is a little ****ed up.

i think most of you had already sorted those issues out to the extent of your attention span already, but i just wanted to get those things off my chest before moving on.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

.... and on the subject of attention spans i only made it to page 3 before posting.

Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht


on death metal....

I been working on getting rid of all my negative thoughts. Trying to find the source of all my thinking towards people.

...... It took me awhile to figure it out but the wrong type of music can be counter productive to that. I used to say that it never affected me.

.....Everyone realizes that music affects them emotionally but i dont think they know how far it goes. .... If you listen to hateful things all day then thats gonna affect your thoughts no matter how much you dont realize it.

i know this has been talked about already too, but i just wanted to say that i felt that this was kinda treating the fevers for the cancer.

i know where your coming from mind you. after tripping about a half a step towards the path that might eventually lead me to the right path , i have found myself listening to more classical music as i simply forgot how much i like it. i made a thread a little while ago asking for suggestions on the main board and i downloaded a bunch of these songs (many contributed by an awesome forum member), put them in my play list, and made a disk to listen to on the way to work. so i guess i have sort of been doing the same thing and i am all about the classical, but it certainly isn't going to replace death metal. i go straight from motzart to morbid angel on the regular.

i think that death metal should make you feel aggressive. it's kinda what it was designed to do. i dont think there is anything inherently wrong with this as long as the aggression gets turns off with the car or computer. it has it's place too. i think its nice to get all pumped up to some deicide or something else completely bad ass while hitting the weights or the bag. at this point it actually serves it's purpose for me by reminding me what hitting the weights and the bag feels like.

i think the problem lies more in one's ability to act or not act on their impulses, more than the fact that certain stimuli may or may not lead to such impulses. you mentioned thoughts and i think this is true for thoughts as well. feeling a surge of aggression while listening to some wholesome carcass isn't a bad thing. suddenly beating the **** out of someone in your head because of said surge is debatable in its "badness," but it was certainly a process that doesn't always have to happen. i think the process itself can eventually be overcome. in my book, which is quite long at this point, overcoming the process is much better than cutting out the stimuli. then again i'm probably just talking out my ass.

i really do think it comes down to impulses more than stimuli and i think that scott dude already addressed it in a way that i can't. i mean i can nodd and agree, but some i think some of it is a little beyond where im at. hopefully where im heading. that scott dude is one smart mother ****er. unless of course he's just taking out of his ass too.