UK knife crime

[CFT]

Watched a television documentary (Panorama) in the UK last night on the increase in knife crime in the UK. Can't remember any statistics, but the general observations were frightening.

• The programme focused on knife use amongst children. Anywhere from 9 years old upwards.
  
• The children were carrying knives as a deterent or equalizer against a perceived threat from their peers.
  
• The children were willing to use their knives, sometimes for the most trivial of reasons - not even for robbing/mugging a person. E.g. one girl had her face slashed after an argument with a friend. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
  
• Most people never saw the knife coming, even when it was a face-to-face one-on-one situation. They just thought that it was a punch coming in. In some multiple attacker scenarios, the victim just did not know someone was behind them.
  
• A lot of the kids thought there was a "safe" way to injure someone, e.g. stab to the thigh or buttocks - we saw some footage of the latter. A medic said of course this was totally untrue.
  
• Even the smallest of entry wounds, at certain points in the body can cause horrific injuries. One schoolboy was killed by a single thrust to the heart. One schoolboy had a two inch entry wound to his stomach caused by a 6 inch kitchen knife. His surgery scars were 7-8 inches long, vertical and horizontal.
  
• Some very graphic pictures of knife wounds. One showed the back of someone's hand that had been held up in a defensive posture. The knife had cut through the muscle and tendon.

D@mn it was scary!! Kids with weapons, with no reluctance to use them, and with no thoughts or care for the consequences.

EDIT: See these links, particularly the second one.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/default.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/3748510.stm

[Kevin Bell]

Saw parts of it when i came in from training.I've had the misfortune to be attacked by a knife myself though fortunatly for me ownly got a scarred arm out of it.

You know what even if people carry a mobile phone or a set of keys i consider them armed.

Good post buddy.

[CFT]

What really threw me was how unprepared people were, and I would count myself as one of those in all honesty.

The victims were expecting a punch, look down and realise they've been stabbed.

So what do people advocate if they get into a physical confrontation. Expect a blade attack and block appropriately? Does a blade defence leave you more or less vulnerable if there is in fact no blade after all?

I've got no blade experience, so I'm likely to just hand over my wallet or run if I can.

They showed two guys running away from a gang, but one of them wasn't fast enough. He got pushed to the ground then was surrounded and kicked, and suffered 6 slashes from a machete.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by CFT
What really threw me was how unprepared people were, and I would count myself as one of those in all honesty.

The victims were expecting a punch, look down and realise they've been stabbed.

Even when you can see the weapon your brain sometimes doesn't register quickly enough, from what I've been told by a policeman I used to train under (he was a chief inspector responsible for training side-handle baton, riot police in at least two countries and restraint techs for other LEOs).

I must admit, given my experience:

When I was attacked with a chain all I could do was move out of the way... it was luckily enough, but I then realized I'd been in the perfect place for a tech I'd practised many many times.

Ditto bottle.

The one time I was attacked with a knife, I saw him pull it so again I got lucky.

I would say it's next to impossible to prepare very well though. The best reactions are always the simple ones. One guy next to me in a pub just lifted his arm up to glass my face the one night, and I just put my hand out in a lazy pak sao (actually before I did any MA) and it was enough to jam his arm and for the glass to drop.

So what do people advocate if they get into a physical confrontation. Expect a blade attack and block appropriately? Does a blade defence leave you more or less vulnerable if there is in fact no blade after all?

I've got no blade experience, so I'm likely to just hand over my wallet or run if I can.

Yep, that's the answer. If you have no blade exp, or even if you do... just make sure you're quicker than them! One important thing is have enough confidence... not to try and take them on cos that's often suicide, but to know your limits. Then sometimes that's enough to do what you need to do.

One thing you should get out of is 'block appropriately' mentality: there is no 'appropriately' as each sit will be different, and there should be no block. With a blade, as with none, you should be looking at jamming up his structure. This is not 'a block'. This may involve bridging and jamming with a step on an angle and a jam/pak or some other such move (which you should never 'aim' at his arm, cos you'll prob miss, but you should aim in the direction of his arm so that it follows through to his centre mass) and a wrap-up.. At the same time you should be hitting straight of the back foot pref into his face many times.

Ideally, run.

They showed two guys running away from a gang, but one of them wasn't fast enough. He got pushed to the ground then was surrounded and kicked, and suffered 6 slashes from a machete.

I was a champion sprinter at my school, and I run a hell of a lot faster when I'm chased by a gang!!! Who says running isn't a useful exercise?!

Just a few thoughts... sorry the tech aspect is a bit garbled, short of time now.

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by CFT
What really threw me was how unprepared people were, and I would count myself as one of those in all honesty.

The victims were expecting a punch, look down and realise they've been stabbed.

So what do people advocate if they get into a physical confrontation. Expect a blade attack and block appropriately? Does a blade defence leave you more or less vulnerable if there is in fact no blade after all?

I've got no blade experience, so I'm likely to just hand over my wallet or run if I can.

They showed two guys running away from a gang, but one of them wasn't fast enough. He got pushed to the ground then was surrounded and kicked, and suffered 6 slashes from a machete.

If they're after my wallet and its got twenty quid in let them have it.

If its on and i cant escape or get an improvised weapon i advocate getting close minimising the risk to myself and serving the threat up big time.Using exactley this principle worked for me perfectly under extreme pressure.If i didnt act i would be dead anyway.Ok, i got a scar big deal could have been far worse.

Yes there is going to be blood that is an absolute certainty.More likely a slahing rather than a stabbing.There are some courses that are very good you can attend like Strategic Tactics Against Blades (STAB).

Its knowing when to aquiece and give twenty quid away or fight for your life.The option to run is obselete if your pushing your children in a pushchair.Better to hand the money over dont you think???

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Kevin Bell
If they're after my wallet and its got twenty quid in let them have it.

Exactly.

If its on and i cant escape or get an improvised weapon i advocate getting close minimising the risk to myself and serving the threat up big time.

If it's on, you don't have time to get an improvised weapon. Even if you're in a bar with your hands on a chair, what's quicker, the glass or the chair? And if you're in a bar with your hands on a glass you may just get away with it in court even if you have the balls to use it, but you're probably going down.

And yeah to getting close, that's what I meant by jamming (if my jum sao misses I'm hoping for the bottom of the ribs, if my pak misses it shoul be hs sternum etc) and wrapping up, by which I meant a takedown, or close entanglement on his arm... eg a garn sao under his arm... any of which combined with the hardest thing you can throw in his face, probably an elbow at that range.

On the other hand thinking about it, stepping back and kicking low and had (like a stop kick or a kick to his shins) may give you enough time to run, given the space. It's a high percentage of a hit, but if you miss, he's coming in like a steamtrain (with a knife!!!).

More likely a slahing rather than a stabbing.

Is that right? I think it's the other way round esp from a concealed strike.

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Mat
Exactly.

[/b]If it's on, you don't have time to get an improvised weapon. Even if you're in a bar with your hands on a chair, what's quicker, the glass or the chair? And if you're in a bar with your hands on a glass you may just get away with it in court even if you have the balls to use it, but you're probably going down.

And yeah to getting close, that's what I meant by jamming (if my jum sao misses I'm hoping for the bottom of the ribs, if my pak misses it shoul be hs sternum etc) and wrapping up, by which I meant a takedown, or close entanglement on his arm... eg a garn sao under his arm... any of which combined with the hardest thing you can throw in his face, probably an elbow at that range.

On the other hand thinking about it, stepping back and kicking low and had (like a stop kick or a kick to his shins) may give you enough time to run, given the space. It's a high percentage of a hit, but if you miss, he's coming in like a steamtrain (with a knife!!!).Is that right? I think it's the other way round esp from a concealed strike. [/B]

Youre correct getting an improvised weapon is easier said than done.According to the research i've done most knife attacks result in slashings rather than stabbings (Metropolitan police statistics) of course this does not take into account the amount of knife attacks that go unreported.

If a person has a knife i want to be closer to him rather than further away.People carrying concealed weapons are highly dangerous.The assailent must be taken out before he can get the concealed weapon out.Therefore the only way is forward to incapcitate the opponent before they know whats happened.Once the threat has dissipated the priority is then to escape.We can look to VT of fighting the person not the hands i.e elbows,gauges,relentless barage of blows rather than difficult wrist locks that require very fine motor skills and in all probability will fail.

You want to practise a good drill in class,get a friend to come at you with a marker pen in a frenzied attack for about 1 minute.Check your arms plenty of pen marks right??

I've seen people practising overcomplicated drills with plastic or wooden knives going into the if you do this i do this when you come at me.Ok,fine.Now get a Mick "crocodile" dundee knive and do the drills again without complicity.I bet you then almost all of those drills wont work.

Some of the better weapons work exists in the Defendu system or the military version (not the civilian or police version) of Krav Maga.Always worth investigation

[Tydive]

Run if you can. If you run as slow as I do, then train really hard. You never know what somebody will come out with, gun, knife, glass etc... and as they say there is not much you can do about it.

Most of the non trained knife attacks are slashes, but there are punch daggars out there (good luck seeing that one coming) which anybody can use to good effect. The variety of shivs and blade like weapons out there is amazing. Credit cards with razor edges, pens, sharpened screwdrivers (very common) etc... So you are not always facing something that you would even recognize as a knife in normal conditions, let alone while under attack.

Most knife defense training is just plain wrong. However I can give you a few general tips that do help.

1. Don't get hit. Seriously, use that footwork to get out of the way of the attack. That way it does not matter what the guy is holding. So, it really comes down to awareness on your part to avoid getting cornered in the first place. And controlling the situation as best you can. Some self defence / combat training classes cover this in great detail.

2. Assume that everyone around you is on the side of the attacker, and is armed. Assume that every attacker has mulitple weapons.

3. Mace them. Pepper spray / mace is a fantastic self defense item. It can give you an opportunity to run, but don't count on it to do anything other than disrupt the attackers vision. The key for you is to take some classes on how to use mace and get certified. Then practice quick draw, sneak draw etc... work out ways so that when you see you are in a dangerous situation you have it in hand prior to combat. Then get ready to spray and run. The mistake people make is spraying then attacking, which pretty much means you just maced yourself as well.

4. Know that knives are fast. A trained person with a blade can stab you starting from 10 feet away before you can draw a gun or anything else. From normal conflict range (less than 3 feet) you won't have much of a chance to react. So my suggestion is that if things are going to go down, make sure you start it. Keep em on the defensive and keep attacking until the person / people are down and staying down.

5. Know the law. Depending on where you are the law may not be on your side. You need to be able to show self defense, and reasonable response. For the most part that means that if you do take the attacker down, you can't keep beating on them. If you disarm them (not freaking likely) you can't use the weapon on them.

Kids with blades is sad and scary but not new.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Tydive


4. Know that knives are fast. A trained person with a blade can stab you starting from 10 feet away before you can draw a gun or anything else. From normal conflict range (less than 3 feet) you won't have much of a chance to react. So my suggestion is that if things are going to go down, make sure you start it. Keep em on the defensive and keep attacking until the person / people are down and staying down.

.

Even worse than that:
http://www.rmcat.com/page3.html

"Scenario Based Firearms Training:
Observe the first picture at right. It would seem that the man with the gun clearly has the advantage over the man brandishing the knife. The distance between them is about 18 feet.

But, when the knifer charges in most cases he will be able to use the knife before most people can draw and fire their gun and stop the attack. This is one type of scenario we use at RMCAT to demonstrate to people the "reactionary gap" needed in such a situation. Some advanced police firearms training also demonstrates that most people need about 23 feet to draw and fire their weapon before being killed with the knife.

Now study the last frame, the student has dropped to the ground even as he is being overrun by the assailant with the blade. This is an absolute " last ditch" technique but in this case it works. This identifies another important element about scenario based , firearms training. By using real guns and rubber bullets there is no need for any "guess work". You know if you survived the scenario or not. More importantly, your body learns what you must do to survive such an attack in your home or on the street. Thus, you won't have to bet your life that you will do it all right the first time out should you ever face an actual attack."

[Tydive]

Interesting link...

Rule of thumb is 21 feet for most of those training classes. Meaning that within 21 feet the person with knife in hand beats the person with gun in holster 9 times out of 10. (assumes that knife attacks first).

From 10 feet knife in hand can beat gun drawn, but only 7 out of 10 (in my experience). Now, the bullet may or may not stop me... so you could say that the defender will get stabbed unless the bullet is able to kill me instantly... Not likely if I am wearing my vest.

From 6 feet or closer if I have a knife in my hand the other guy is stabbed, but just does not know it yet. As long as I attack first.

From normal conflict range (less than 3 feet) it's as fast as I can throw a jab. And most of you should know how hard it is to block a jab from close range. I would guess most of us here can strike multiple times in a second... You get the idea.

The biggest issue here is that guns are distance weapons and mostly useless for up close defence. If you want to defend against a knife then get a stick or another knife. I always used a straight "billy club" rather than the tonfa that most officers use. It's faster IMHO and very handy for those who have done any Kali/Escrema training.

It also helps that people tend to forget about the other limbs when they are holding a knife. The key really is to be the attacker or to run, do not try to defend. IIRC the numbers are around 75% of blade attacks land. So if you don't want to bleed, don't let them attack.