Mandatory participation in forms competition

[Ming Yue]

I disagree. There is a division within the competition for novice, up to 6 months training. Even though we're skipping this one, the beginners in our school will be prepared and will enjoy competition.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Has everyone missed the point that Oso wants to put guys into a tournament after 2 months? I'd say that it would really be counter productive to enter them at this stage.
I once had a 10 minute nose bleed in a "no face contact" tournament and it was ruled to be a valid strike

Why would it be counterproductive?

You don't have any idea of what sort of training they have been doing and I wouldn't be throwing them into competition against far more experienced students. I have other new students that I'm advising not to do sparring competition yet. These two students have above average instinct for timing and are utilizing the basic tools well enough to compete in a division limited to newbies.

That was a pretty blanket statement to make.

The sooner a student can get a handle on basic fighting methods the sooner they should compete, if they have a desire to compete. They will only be better for it.

[red5angel]

is this a tma style tourney? If it was I think I'd be ok with having to do forms stuff since it's a part of the training for the most part.

[GLW]

"The way you describe it sounds like CMA guys were making up rules to keep from getting beaten up by others. Who cares if he's karate. if he can fight. fight. if he competes in a southern form then he's going to have to do things well to place because the judges know what southern styles look like.."

Not that at all.

In 2004, you all have the luxury of having been in this when there WERE competitions that had judges that actually KNEW what they were supposed to be looking at. You also have the luxury of having experienced continuous sparring where the aim was to keep going...not stop for a point. AND you have the luxury of having more venues for full contact than simply PKA (Remember that...where there were no takedowns, mandatory N number of kicks per round...and when those were thrown, it degenerated into bad boxing....).

These rules were developed back then. (Granted, they are probably outdated and the major CMA groups no longer require such things...but they do NOT allow Gi's )

At that time, the whole idea of NOT stopping a fight to call a point was brand new. No one did that and to my knowledge, the CMA Only events in Houston, Tx. were the first to do that.

There was a bit of elitism in there. The attitude was "we are sick and tired of Karate style events...and we want nothing to do with those methods....and THOSE people promoting them"

The revolt was against ALL CMA styles being in a single division. At that time, ALL weapons were also in a single division. It was typical for a competition to be scheduled and NO judges other than the friends of the promoter were invited. Then, at the beginning of the event, they would make an announcement asking for all black belts and instructors to come to table X....and they would draft you to be a judge....and all you had to say was you were a black belt...even if you had no real training at all.

(There WAS a grand experiment in trying to have forms LEAD to fighting. I would say that that experiment failed.)

The idea was to say "We ARE different in approach. We WILL set our own path... If we want to join in to their events, we can...but we don't want their approach to infect us. There was also a concerted effort to INVITE judges so there would be qualified people judging.

Now, if you are going to invite judges and pay for 50% of their hotel costs (which IS pretty common), you have a real expense for your event. If you are promoting your event by saying that the competitors will be judged by people that are qualified to evaluate them, you then have an issue to deal with. If you include other styles, you have to include judges for them. More money for that.

This approach had been growing for about 5 years or so before the first idea about the Lei Tai stage and Sanshou was ever thought up.

The whole idea is probably outdated... Form is a specialty and there are those that do it very well and have no idea what they are doing. Fighting can be a specialty as well. So far, the only person to have competed at a high level in both has been Jason Yee. So...making a connection between the two is not really necessary. It would be enough to simply have a dress code for the events and let the chips fall where they may.

I am giving the HISTORICAL perspective of how the decisions for this type of rule came about. Personally, I still view it as being a choice. If I don't like the rules, the promoter, the organization, whatever, I speak with my time and money by not attending. If I DO attend, I make sure I KNOW and FOLLOW the rules they have laid out.

[Oso]

red5, yes, it is a cma event. My gripe is that I don't teach anything longer than a 3 or 4 move line drill during the first 6 months. So, my complaint would be mostly for that division...although, as I've said now, I'm against mandatory forms as a prerequisite for sparring competition.

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha, first and foremost, a huge YAWN to your sterotypical response, can't find another way to troll?

Second, have you ever fought full contact? Find out how "simple" San Da is. You might "simply" be sitting on your butt with a bloody nose and a concusion

GLW, I notice you ducked the #1 issue, what if your TCMA doesn't do forms?

I can name 5 very legit traditional styles where you don't do forms.

So they can't spar because you want a "pure" Chinese martial art competition?

[GLW]

I did NOT duck the question.

It is a very small part of the CMA community.

I did NOT say whether or not I agreed with the concept.

(in fact, for Sanshou, it is a stupid idea since the training for high level Sanshou or high level Taolu are so time consuming that it is next to impossible to do both and do both well).

When the rule was first put into effect, I know that the original architects of the rule did NOT consider any styles that did not have forms. However, they also did not worry about styles that normally don't compete in forms either.

In those instances, the competitors were typically handled by an exception basis...meaning they did things like speaking with someone like Jeff Bolt in person.

[lkfmdc]

it is STILL a retarded idea, no matter how people try and explain it....

I love the proposition of the reverse equation, ie if you want to do forms, you have to FIGHT first!!!!

My lord, you could see the howls, woeful sorrow and crying,,,

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I love the proposition of the reverse equation, ie if you want to do forms, you have to FIGHT first!!!!

I second that... Would be interesting to see what happens to the forms competition when shaped by having to train in contact sparring.

[Oso]

Just got a response from the promoter and I respect his decision, reasoning and opinion. I just don't agree necessarily.

He said that he wants the judges to get a good idea of the style that the fighter is representing before they fight. Valid, I think. I just don't think it's necessary.

As said above, the most cogent rebuttal is that form players should fight if fighters need to play a form. That would remove all argument from both sides of the fence as it would be completely fair...decent fighters look like crap on the floor and decent forms people look like crap in the ring.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
Yum Cha, first and foremost, a huge YAWN to your sterotypical response, can't find another way to troll?

Second, have you ever fought full contact? Find out how "simple" San Da is. You might "simply" be sitting on your butt with a bloody nose and a concusion

So they can't spar because you want a "pure" Chinese martial art competition?

...and you call my response a stereotypical troll? ...if you weren't so busy selling tickets to yourself, you might read what other people actually say instead of jumping to the wrong conclusion.

So, having looked at several of the sites, including yours, do I have the wrong facts? Your rules talk about all the protective gear you have to wear and yet you insist it's more realistic? Its a specialty, you learn how to use the gear, it changes how you fight, hate to burst your bad-ass bubble. You don't dive into your opponent like that when the sh1t goes down for real...you probably know that. Unless of course, you're the kind that likes to pick on opponents you know you can easily overwhelm. Girls, old women, the fat kid, your little brother, etc...

You jump to the conclusion I've never fought Full Contact in your "I'm so Bad" tone, and again, you're wrong, and small minded to make such a "Stereotypical" Ass-umption.

When I fought, we didn't wear the "sumo suit", we used 8 oz gloves, box and mouthguard, and they cancelled the tournements because so many guys got injured, and the organisers (the Sydney Chinatown Masters) couldn't afford the costs of special venues, ringside doctors, ambulances, etc that the Gaming (boxing) commission landed on them to provide.

It was club vs club, and everybody played, not just the "specialists." We had beautiful matches between stylists that demonstrated the characteristis of their style and we had slug-fests that degenerated into wrestling clinches and haymakers. The only rules were no elbows and no knees, and you could take someone down, but then it stopped.

It looked a lot like your site's photos, but without the extra protective gear, ring, etc..

By the way, I have been on my butt with a bloody nose and a concussion...ain't no big thing. Want pictures?

And, while we're talking about Ass-umptions, I never said anything about "deadly secret kung-fu" I'm just applauding and supporting getting all-rounders into the mix, not separating a tournament into specialists. Not lionising only martial artists who rely on protective gear for a false sense of realism. Its so monodimensional.

As a pat on the back Sunshine, I did like your assertion that forms players should be required to spar, fair enough. Like a triathalon, weapons, forms, fighting, total points for a winner. Beauty.

What is more admirable than training a well-rounded, disciplined, courageous, martial artist that carries the traditional skills and perspective of their style? Otherwise, go NHB, K1, or whatever.

Sounds to me like you like "draping" yourself traditions, but you've really just a taste for shortcuts and combination fried rice. You'll never know what you lost yet you belittle other styles for trying to keep it.

And just for the record, what are the "traditional" arts that have gloved fighting, but no forms? Just so I know what your frame of reference is.

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha,
Be honest, which bothers you more? The fact we are famous or the fact that we can fight? Man, such bitter posts....

Yes, our shows sell tickets, they SELL OUT, because we have people with the BALLS to actually fight going out there and putting on great shows. They don't just sit on internet forums talking about how "deadly" they are

Yes, my schools sells memberships, HUNDREDS of them, because unlike a lot of so called "traditional" schools, my students get in shape and learn how to fight. They see concrete results. They aren't just told how some guy 100 years ago in the traditoin used to be a bad azz

You have such a huge issue with protective gear. WHY? Do you really think shin guards and gloves make such a huge difference? People sure as heck get Knocked the BLACK out (KTFO) with them on .....

Like the time we KO'd a Thai guy and he said after the fight that it would have been different without shin guards. YEAH, his head would have been split TWICE as wide open by the bare shin

My guys just as easily fight WITHOUT GEAR, and still win

Hate to burst your "I'm a deadly traditionalist bubble"

The training produces FIGHTERS, period. My students have won at San Da, Muay Thai, grappling, BOXING, MMA... all different rules, all different gear formats...

You're really funny with your "don't dive in" line, ****, showed you've never been in a real fight. In real fights, clinches happen, and in addition, people try and tackle you. You can practice your deadly pheonix eye finger to death but you are still gonna end up on your butt if you can't wrestle

So where and when have you fought? Please do share! And as far as me, well, it is known here that I've also accepted no rules challenges, and I'm still here to type my opinions and pizz you off

Got to love the line

- "When I fought, ... they cancelled the tournements because so many guys got injured"

Dude, first of all, maybe if the participants had some DEFENSE they wouldn't get so badly injured they couldn't continue. We do no gear Muay Thai in NY all the time, the matches never have to be stopped, but then again, those are Thai boxers and San Da fighters and not deluded "traditionalists"

Second, maybe if you had worn head gear and shin guards you could have continued to compete, actually gotten some experience and actually gotten better....

I notice you didn't fight with KNEES, we do all the time. Our A guys and our PRO's fight with ELBOWS. And you want to talk to me about being more realistic?

So, you didn't answer me, were you one of the guys who got so injured that they couldnt' continue the tournament? Shame on you for getting KTFO'd

And for the record, as the adopted disciple of a world famous master, TRUST ME, I've forgotten more traditional Chinese martial art than you'll ever hope to see....

And finally, ever heard of natural style, Yi Quan, Hop Ga, Wah Kuen, Tin Gong Pai, or Mo style? No, didn't think so......

[lkfmdc]

Yum Cha,
Be honest, which bothers you more? The fact we are famous or the fact that we can fight? Man, such bitter posts....

Yes, our shows sell tickets, they SELL OUT, because we have people with the BALLS to actually fight going out there and putting on great shows. They don't just sit on internet forums talking about how "deadly" they are

Yes, my schools sells memberships, HUNDREDS of them, because unlike a lot of so called "traditional" schools, my students get in shape and learn how to fight. They see concrete results. They aren't just told how some guy 100 years ago in the traditoin used to be a bad azz

You have such a huge issue with protective gear. WHY? Do you really think shin guards and gloves make such a huge difference? People sure as heck get Knocked the BLACK out (KTFO) with them on .....

Like the time we KO'd a Thai guy and he said after the fight that it would have been different without shin guards. YEAH, his head would have been split TWICE as wide open by the bare shin

My guys just as easily fight WITHOUT GEAR, and still win

Hate to burst your "I'm a deadly traditionalist bubble"

The training produces FIGHTERS, period. My students have won at San Da, Muay Thai, grappling, BOXING, MMA... all different rules, all different gear formats...

You're really funny with your "don't dive in" line, ****, showed you've never been in a real fight. In real fights, clinches happen, and in addition, people try and tackle you. You can practice your deadly pheonix eye finger to death but you are still gonna end up on your butt if you can't wrestle

So where and when have you fought? Please do share! And as far as me, well, it is known here that I've also accepted no rules challenges, and I'm still here to type my opinions and pizz you off

Got to love the line

- "When I fought, ... they cancelled the tournements because so many guys got injured"

Dude, first of all, maybe if the participants had some DEFENSE they wouldn't get so badly injured they couldn't continue. We do no gear Muay Thai in NY all the time, the matches never have to be stopped, but then again, those are Thai boxers and San Da fighters and not deluded "traditionalists"

Second, maybe if you had worn head gear and shin guards you could have continued to compete, actually gotten some experience and actually gotten better....

I notice you didn't fight with KNEES, we do all the time. Our A guys and our PRO's fight with ELBOWS. And you want to talk to me about being more realistic?

So, you didn't answer me, were you one of the guys who got so injured that they couldnt' continue the tournament? Shame on you for getting KTFO'd

And for the record, as the adopted disciple of a world famous master, TRUST ME, I've forgotten more traditional Chinese martial art than you'll ever hope to see....

And finally, ever heard of natural style, Yi Quan, Hop Ga, Wah Kuen, Tin Gong Pai, or Mo style? No, didn't think so......

[Icewater]

So to answer your question Oso, mandatory participation in forms should be required because it facilitates discussion threads. These threads are available for asking reasonable questions that ultimately lead into 'my dog is bigger than your dog' discussions.' The aforementioned dog discussion will eventually degrade into sarcasm and ultimately posturing. In turn, posturing can lead into a fight. We all know that sparring is necessary to improve ones fighting ability. Therefore, mandatory forms lead to sparring. So if you are going to enter the sparring competition, you might as well do forms because they are one and the same.

[Oso]

LMAO !!!!

Well, this thread has strengthened my stance on how and why I want my students to spar. So, it's a good thing.