Taoist vs Buddhist

[fiercest tiger]

Guys,

I posted this on southern fist forum as well!!

I just started learning a daoist internal system that dates back to two of Lao Tzu's senior disciples from WU TAI SHAN. I have some info and ive posted it here with a link of the sacred mountains.http://www.sacredsites.com/asia/chin...mountains.html

It said that before the buddhist claimed it it was a Daoist mountain. Im wondering maybe there was a huge fight between DAOIST and Buddhist around the time of Lao Tzu. Which may have defeated the daoist and claimed there mountain and temples at this place? These mountains now are mostly Buddhist and tibetan Buddhist and hardly a Daoist temple!?

Anyone care to chat about this as well, your thoughts on these 2 beliefs and fighting systems?

For you scholars how about some info brothers? I know your there lerrrrrrrking and waiiiiiiiiting!! hehe

No Flames just good ol chit chat, YOU KNOW!

FT

[Serpent]

Well, in the Chinese mind, Taoism and Buddhism are not mutually exclusive. In most instances there's a large amount of overlap and it's only the western mind that insists on pigeon-holing everything exactly.

With that in mind, I think it's unlikely that there was ever fighting between the two denominations outside of movies like Kids From Shaolin.

I would be interested in some factual background though...

[joedoe]

I once read an article that suggested that far from there being a rivalry between the two, there was actually a lot of cooperation and sharing of ideas since there was a lot in common between the two 'religions'.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Serpent
Kids From Shaolin

That movie sucked. I can't believe I've seen it twice.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Lao Tsu is said to have been born around the year 604 BC. Buddhism was founded in India by Siddhartha Guatama who lived between 563 and 483 bc.


If you have ever heard the story that chinese buddhism has roots in daoism and do the math on Lao Tsu and Buddha, aka Siddartha Guatama would likely been 40 + yrs Lao Tsu s junior and in his own mission to take buddhism throughout China, and as a prince and a man travelling province to province , kingdom to kingdom familliar with speaking to leaders about their beliefs etc and ways to bring about peace, it is likely that it was then the 2 would have met and maybe this happened on wutangshan, ( ??) and from there, indian buddhism took it's first evoloution adopting some toaist concepts and so on.

THese men are spirituaL leaders and advocate peace as part of the parameters of definition of those systems respectively. They no doubt disaggreed on some issues, but to say they fought was probably an embellishment. It certainly wasn't with gongfu though, because as you know, that didn't arrive in buddhism until much later down the track.

cheers

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
I once read an article that suggested that far from there being a rivalry between the two, there was actually a lot of cooperation and sharing of ideas since there was a lot in common between the two 'religions'.

Yeah, that was kinda my point.

The Shaolin monk Choy Fook, for example, hid out on Lo Fo Shan among a bunch of Taoist temples, although "devoutly" Buddhist. There is some speculation that that's where the BaGwa influence on his Shaolin art comes from.

Nice to think that these people focussed on the similarities rather than the differences in their philosophies and belief systems.

[FuXnDajenariht]

I think the whole non existant rivarly things come from internal or "daoist" martial artists and the shaolin or "buddhist" artists. I dont think monks from either religion would be ignorant enough to feud over anything. It goes against both of their beliefs. The rivalry story is prolly a recent thing for those people seekin validation for what they practice. You know. Internal is better than External or External is just as good....blah blah blah


































blah blah

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Guys,

I posted this on southern fist forum as well!!

I just started learning a daoist internal system that dates back to two of Lao Tzu's senior disciples from WU TAI SHAN. I have some info and ive posted it here with a link of the sacred mountains.http://www.sacredsites.com/asia/chin...mountains.html

It said that before the buddhist claimed it it was a Daoist mountain. Im wondering maybe there was a huge fight between DAOIST and Buddhist around the time of Lao Tzu. Which may have defeated the daoist and claimed there mountain and temples at this place? These mountains now are mostly Buddhist and tibetan Buddhist and hardly a Daoist temple!?

Anyone care to chat about this as well, your thoughts on these 2 beliefs and fighting systems?

For you scholars how about some info brothers? I know your there lerrrrrrrking and waiiiiiiiiting!! hehe

No Flames just good ol chit chat, YOU KNOW!

FT

Historically, Buddhism was not introduce into China until the Han dynasty. so, certainly, there was no fight in Lao Tzu's time.

Second, buddhism and daoism did have conflict. The conflict largely confined in winning sponsorship from the court. it did not spiral into completely blood shed like catholic vs protestants in Europe, but at time it did get nasty.

In the mid tang dynasty, the buddhist influence became so strong, the emperor saw it as a threat to his own power. He switched to taoism, promoted taoism, forced monks and nuns to renounced their vows and return to the worldly lives.

The court designate which religion has the right to expand and set up temples in the sacred mountains. Depending on the wind of politics, one might gain favor while the other lost out.

These mountain are sacred because of comsology within each religion and feng shui issues. I won't go into details because I am not qualified.

I am sending you a PM b/c I want ask something in private.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

back then, there was no one court there were many seperate kingdoms and countries. What you say doesn't quite add up, but before I go sprouting, I'm going to check some dates and come to it.

[Buddy]

"What you say doesn't quite add up, but before I go sprouting, I'm going to check some dates and come to it."

Too late. Once again you decide to "spout" without having any facts.

ft,
"I just started learning a daoist internal system that dates back to two of Lao Tzu's senior disciples from WU TAI SHAN."

There is no evidence that there was a Lao Tzu. The name means 'honored old guy'. Obviously there was a book attributed to someone of that nickname but to say there is a martial art that dates back to two disciples of someone who is probably a composite leaves one wondering. The Chinese love to attribute this or that to the ancients. What is the name of this 'internal' system?
I think what wandering monk says makes a great deal of sense.

OK back to eego/bloomie:
"Buddha, aka Siddartha Guatama would likely been 40 + yrs Lao Tsu s junior and in his own mission to take buddhism throughout China, and as a prince and a man travelling province to province , kingdom to kingdom familliar with speaking to leaders about their beliefs etc and ways to bring about peace, it is likely that it was then the 2 would have met and maybe this happened on wutangshan, ( ??) and from there, indian buddhism took it's first evoloution adopting some toaist concepts and so on."

The sheer idiocy of this is staggering. Siddartha GAVE UP being a prince to be an ascetic. He never went to China and it is UNlikely he ever met up with a fictional character. But don't bother with facts Bloomie, just go on spouting.

[SevenStar]

wow....someone here remembers eek the cat?

[Hermes3X]

There is some.... lack of historical research going on here.

The Buddhists and the Taoists did fight, especially under the Mongols like Kubilai Khan. You can check Morris Rossabi's biography of Khan if you want a reference..

Buddhist and Daoist philosophies are profoundly different. Buddhism is simply the Easternmost Edge of Western thought. It is an Indo-European Form of thinking. Daoism is Chinese through and through and uses very particular ways of categorizing the world that do not exist in the Indo-European World.

All of these figures like Damo and Laozi and such are legendary. Siddartha is probably real, but much of his life is legendary.

anyway that's all I have to say. Please keep the strands of Chinese thought clear

[FuXnDajenariht]

Originally posted by SevenStar
wow....someone here remembers eek the cat?

dude...sharky was da man


a.s.p.c.a.......


ima cartoon fan....what can i say. i much prefer it to most of whats on tv.

you remember mighty max? thats probably my favorite cartoon of all time as a kid

[Serpent]

Is it me or is this thread just a little bit surreal?

[SimonM]

Originally posted by Buddy

OK back to eego/bloomie:
"Buddha, aka Siddartha Guatama would likely been 40 + yrs Lao Tsu s junior and in his own mission to take buddhism throughout China, and as a prince and a man travelling province to province , kingdom to kingdom familliar with speaking to leaders about their beliefs etc and ways to bring about peace, it is likely that it was then the 2 would have met and maybe this happened on wutangshan, ( ??) and from there, indian buddhism took it's first evoloution adopting some toaist concepts and so on."

The sheer idiocy of this is staggering. Siddartha GAVE UP being a prince to be an ascetic. He never went to China and it is UNlikely he ever met up with a fictional character. But don't bother with facts Bloomie, just go on spouting.

Yeah, the ****hest that Siddartha ever got from the India/Nepal border was Sri Lanka (according to the Sutras).