We need a better analogy!

[YongChun]

Since most everyone is getting tired of the swimming analogy how about searching for a better one.

For example: A piano player is a piano player whether they are playing grade one piano, or are playing concert level piano. A piano player who plays in concerts calls himself a concert pianist. Those who do martial arts are called martial artists. Those martial artists who fight are called fighters. Some fighters used to be martial artists just as some concert pianists used to be piano players. I know this can be picked apart but it's a start.

There are various ways to rate fighters: each level usually looks down upon the previous level. Fighters are level 3 and above the rest are hobbyists and sportsmen.

Level 1:
Practice forms, do drills, do sparring < 100%

Level2:
Practice forms, do drills, do sparring = 100%

Level 3:
Fight professionally in the ring against the Thais, against BJJ, against Western boxing.

Level 4:
Fight for your life on the street, in bars against a pack of Hell’s Angels, in prison.

Level 5:
Fight in a war or as a mercenary or paid assassin or bounty hunter.

Level 1 has been labeled the dry land swimming category.
Level 2 has been called the swimmer category and Terence said he is in level 2.

Now in the swimming analogy, what is level 3,4 and 5?

Maybe:

Level 3:
Swimmers who swim in the wild ocean with the sharks or swimmers who rescue other people or swimmers who compete in the Olympics.

Level 4:
Swimmers who swim in storms and fight with sharks.

Level 5:
Swimmers who jump of high cliffs, fight with sharks, fight with Pihrana, or fight underwater with knives, blowguns and anything else.

Since dry land swimming doesn’t relate at all to what most people do, how about

1. Someone who does mathematics all the time, maybe enters math contests, solves difficult problems vs. the professional engineer who puts his mathematics to use to construct bridges, designs airplanes, and makes atomic bombs.
2. Someone who plays tag football all his life vs someone who plays tackle football.
3. Someone who plays popular piano in bars vs someone who plays Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin in a concert.

Those people all do the same thing but with different emphasis, professionalism, intent and whatever. But dry land swimmers don’t swim at all. So this is a poor ill-conceived analogy.

Each level demands a different kind of training. Most people fall into levels 1 or 2 no matter what the activity.

Perhaps the type of training required for each level can be discussed?

[Ernie]

I like level 4 =)
Or better yet train as if you’re going to have to survive a level 4 environment

But ray you cant quantify a fighter , you can train in the proven methods that produce people with fighting skill [ now define fighting skill in your mind ]
And not just one or two mythical people but a wide range of people from all walks of life

Unless we are at war then we are just training , that training will produce certain levels of efficacy [ insert your definition of efficient ]

Some demand more of themselves and thus turn up the heat and the methods , they will be obviously better
Some don’t take it up to that level and they will not have the same amount of combat skill , now they might have other skills at a higher level but the end result will not be the same as one that trains at a more extreme level

The piano thing doesn’t work for me because music is a subjective thing but combative skill is easily measured tested and refined

But in the end do what makes you happy and be honest don’t reach outside yourself

I know my limitations , I know I can’t get in the ring with a pro anything and survive no matter how much theory and talking and reading and forms and chi sau I do , this is a different level of commitment

To believe or say anything else is to lie to yourself really

Even as my Wing chun skill grows every year I still can’t except to get in and mix it up with pro level people there conditioned to a higher level there mind and body are dialed in for one task

But you can learn from there hard work and training methods and water it down play with it experiment and enjoy the process , just don’t fool yourself into thinking wing chun rules and all will fall in it’s mighty presence

[YongChun]

Ernie,

I agree with that 100% well put.

Ray

[anerlich]

I think dry land swimming is a great analogy and hard to improve on.

The problem with it is it gets boring and loses its impact after you've heard it several thousand times from all sorts of sources.

[AmanuJRY]

I agree with Andrew, the swimming analogy is good, just overused.

I do like using music as an analogy as well.

[Block]

Hi Guys,

I've been off the forum for some time so I'm not really up to date with all the discussions. Forgive me if this has been covered before but it seems to me that the swimming analogy has one fundamental flaw.

That is, if you throw a person into water and they have never swum before (excluding the water babies phenomenon which you could read something else into I guess) then that person WILL drown.

However, a person who has never been taught how to fight or never experienced a fighting situation before can potentially beat their opponent, even if that opponent is bigger, better, stronger or fitter.

I know you guys recognise that the above situation obviously does arise from time to time but do we simply dismiss these types of examples as one offs as the person could probably not reproduce the result if they wanted to.

Or on the other hand are there people who are just natural swimmers?

Cheers
Block

[anerlich]

The dry land swimming analogy refers more to teachers and students of fighting/swimming.

The central arguments are whether you can be taught to fight orswim by someone who claims ot be an "expert" on swimming theory but has never actually been in the water or fought for real themselves;

and,

Whether practicing strokes or techniques on dry land will be of any help when you actually get in the water.

"Or on the other hand are there people who are just natural swimmers?"

I don't know if the experiment has ever been tried (if I were a non-swimmer I wouldn't volunteer); most people these days in rich countries are taught to swim as kids, and in water, due to the proven nature of the approach, and the manifest common sense of the approach.

If we can assume for a moment that swimming is like fighting, i.e. everyone can do it to some small degree without tuition, the questions don't disappear, only change, to:

Will your performance improve quicker, or at all, if you learn to swim on dry land instead of in water?

Will you improve quicker, or at all, if taught by a dry land expert or someone with the same teaching ability who swims daily?

[Miles Teg]

Im not a fan of the whole swimming analogy in the way it has been presented in other threads, but it is relevant depending on how you look at it and what you consider the goal to be.

First up what is the act of swimimg in the water. Is it fighting or sparring. The 2 need to be separated. If it is fighting then sparring is also dry water training.

The way I think the swimming analogy is really relevant is when we consider a person who wants to be a good swimmer but lives in the middle of Africa. It is not that easy to come across a pool of water where he lives. When he finally gets an opportunity to find a pool of water he runs the risk of getting attacked by crocs or snakes. This is like it is with fighting. The opportunities are not so available these days and when they are there is a very real risk of getting hurt by human crocs or snakes.

My conclusion being: we can only do dry water training to various levels of intensity to prepare our selves for the real water.

And as someone asked above, it is possible to learn how to swim by being thrown in. Just as it is possible to be able to fight by just getting in real fights. But there are probably limits to how skilled you get without instruction. You want to be an olympic swimmer or the best fighter around then you're going to need some good quality instruction.

[YongChun]

I have tried just having people fight in the past from day one but it never produces quality martial arts. It just produced knee jerk stiff reactions, awkward looking movements, little control and always a lack of relaxation because the person was just in survival mode. Yet this is the model proposed by Terence. From my experience it is a very poor way to teach beginners any martial art. After the swim or sink approach countless hours if not years are required to get rid of bad habits. Other people may have different experiences.

Ray

[Ernie]

people tend to reach for extremes when they really don't know
like tossing some one into water that can't swim well guess what brainiac
that's what happens when you get attacked and have not dealt with that type of pressure emotional or physical

if that type of intense pressure is not part of your training then stop pretending like it will magically all work out like the kung fu spirit of the dead greats will suddenly take over your body and you will kick ass

you won't you will freeze and choke and maybe die

stop hanging on to what other people have done like it will be the same for you

while you’re at it there is no easter bunny or Santa clause

except you are not really training for an intense combative moment
you are not preparing for anything near that

you are simply enjoying your level of training stop making it more then what it is

with all the clever metaphors and circle runing arguments if your not getting in and hardcore emotional and physical environment then YOU ARE NOT PREPARINGING FOR ONE

and that's just fine be honest with yourself get off the hype and be true

man thus argument is getting ridicules

some times smart people are really stupid

let the ego go

I for one have trained at that extreme level fighting sparring weapons multiple opponents and guess what it is very hard to maintain it takes allot

but when your there and your one man you can just walk through the average martial artist dreamer like a piece of paper

but it is a very very hard road to maintain

it's been about 2 years for me and though my wing Chun has grown I was much more dangerous back then plain and simple
was not the funniest person to be around

not a healthy mind set was hurt half the time
had no social life trained all the time

if I was not training I was doing the solo prep work
running , sprints ,gym work plyo's stretching bag work

the rest sparring in the ring in the street at night in alleys
up at dawn to run then spar then hit the gym then spar at night

I don't miss that

and even through all that tons of people could kick my but there were just better

worked harder , meaner , tougher

that is life

it amazes me that people just cant be honest and say there are simply doing a hobby and not try and make it out to be *real* combat

in the process of trying to be clever you just seem so lost and silly

everybody is not going to be a star , it’s ok to be a regular person and admit the average boxer can beat you down , he works harder then you plain and simple
most traditional martial artist cant fight there way out of a paper bag
if all you can do is name like 4 people [and I’m being generous ] in all of the arts history , guys what it’s not you and those are not great results

if you want to fight then train with some one who has and fight get in the , challenge people on the street go to prison and take on the biggest baddest dude you can find , grab a gun go to irag jump in a trench and go hand to hand stop speculating on what if’s

admit it most of us are not fighters [ killers] and will never be and we don’t have the right to speak on what we have no experience with

now after 2 hours of sparring and 3 glasses of a very good merlot my rant is over please resume your senseless conversation

[Block]

Hey Andrew,

Ah, I see, yes that make a lot more sense.

It's an interesting analogy to turn over in your mind, especially since the historical approach to Wing Chun training seems to have been much more focused on drilling rather than today’s modern approach of suiting up in armour and going all out.

Yes, those last 2 questions you asked are very good. Can you improve quicker under a sparring type of training regime – I’d say yes you would. You’d get fitter, tougher, hone your aggressive intention faster and learn to adapt very quickly. This approach will probably turn you into a “fighter” faster but not necessarily a martial artist.

Can a dry land teacher make you a fighter at all? Well, I’m not sure what your definition of fighter ended up being but IMO a fighter is someone who is willing to fight when they need to. A dry land teacher can teach you the art but you have to be willing to apply it. Application is the key, train with intensity and realism and you become a good fighter. Don’t and at best you’ll be a bad fighter and worst you’ll be a dead fighter.

Thanks
Block

[YongChun]

I think it's a nice easy way to teach by just having people go all out at each other. A lot of students I encounter are not rough and tough types where that works. I have taught one lady who came from a molestation situation and it took a lot of psychology and step by step work for her to even get to a drilling stage level. Violence just freaked her out. I have another student with a mild schizophrenic condition and violence really freaked him out for a few years. Now slowly he is getting better.

Not everyone has the fighting mentality that Terence or Ernie have when they come in to learn. Most of those types wouldn't even bother to learn some silly martial art. So I still don't think just having people go all out is a good way to teach. It is a good way to teach brawling and crash fighting courses.

There are a lot of those course where someone puts on the gear and you go in beserk mode and go to town on them. It's a good way to develop some natural fighting aggression for some kinds of people.

It's no way to teach proper body mechanics, relaxation and a variety of techniques or to build up their body condition first.

Taekwondo has many kinds of kicks. You just can't become a powerful and fast kicker by just going in from day one trying to kick each other to death. I don't see the need to hurry the process to try to cram this all into one month. I think there is a difference between a brawler and a martial artist. If you have the body for it and the right aggressive mind then brawling is easy to learn. Just do it. But not everyone learning martial arts has that mentality. Yet some can still be turned into fighters with a slower progressive approach which consists of forms, drilling, light sparring and then slowly turn up the intensity and the variety of fighting methods.

Ray

[Ernie]

Ray
There are a lot of those course where someone puts on the gear and you go in beserk mode and go to town on them. It's a good way to develop some natural fighting aggression for some kinds of people.

It's no way to teach proper body mechanics, relaxation and a variety of techniques or to build up their body condition first.


this is the extremist attitude i was talking about
strecthing a realit way out to make something sound better

the exact oppisite the correct body mechanic will only be correct under extreme pressure period

don't belive take that anyone who you 'think has good mechanics and has never been under heavy pressure put them in it and watche them fold like a piece of paper

just reality man

skill is progressive and that progression has to go all the way

i'm not built for the level anymore tasted it
felt it's ''power '' for lack of a better word . but it messes with your mind

i know people on that level they scare me

almost all traditional martial artist in i have ever met don't scare me at all

i'm sure some can put me down easy

but if i compare that ratio to the boxers

boxers will far out number the TMA

and i have no problem with that

just real life

ray--I think it's a nice easy way to teach by just having people go all out at each other. A lot of students I encounter are not rough and tough types where that works. I have taught one lady who came from a molestation situation and it took a lot of psychology and step by step work for her to even get to a drilling stage level. Violence just freaked her out. I have another student with a mild schizophrenic condition and violence really freaked him out for a few years. Now slowly he is getting better.

reality is they probably never will be able to really defened themsleves against a real animal

not that your not a good teacher but your dealing with damaged goods from jumpstreet

just real life man

why gas them up ?

i had a 90 pound girl tht got raped and came to train at gary's school she was a mess an wanted to be able to protect herself

told her the truth buy a gun or some mace

you will never be able to shut down a 250 pound man

real life

ray-Taekwondo has many kinds of kicks

Taekwondo is a joke so is wushu , tap dancing and ballet when it comes to combat

man i think your a great person

but reality is reality


now time for to sleep off the wine and stop being so honest

peace


ray --
Not everyone has the fighting mentality that Terence or Ernie

i think T trains like i used to , i'm not on that level these days

trying to get my body back up to 100% that is more important to me

[YongChun]

Ray
There are a lot of those course where someone puts on the gear and you go in beserk mode and go to town on them. It's a good way to develop some natural fighting aggression for some kinds of people. It's no way to teach proper body mechanics, relaxation and a variety of techniques or to build up their body condition first.

Ernie:
this is the extremist attitude i was talking about
strecthing a realit way out to make something sound better

Ray:
Well from what I have seen in various martial arts schools, good form and position comes first and also fitness. That's not extremist in the slightest but just common sense.

Ernie:
the exact oppisite the correct body mechanic will only be correct under extreme pressure period

Ray:
Maybe for your students who are already fighters and in good condition. There is no way an average non fighter type person can get good mechanics by exposing him to extreme pressure before he can even walk, kick or punch. I have never seen that.

Ernie:
don't belive take that anyone who you 'think has good mechanics and has never been under heavy pressure put them in it and watche them fold like a piece of paper

Ray:
Yes that's the first step after they have developed some mechanics. You expose them to pressure which doesn't even have to be extreme to see them unable to function. Sometimes it takes 6 months before they can function because it is a new environment.

Ernie:
almost all traditional martial artist in i have ever met don't scare me at all

Ray:
Well that's impressive. I suppose. You are a master's master indeed.

Ernie:
i'm sure some can put me down easy but if i compare that ratio to the boxer will far out number the TMA and i have no problem with that just real life.

Ray:
I have no problem with that either. The people in jail who can fight , the people in gangs and the bad guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who can fight probably outnumber the boxers too.

Ernie:
reality is they probably never will be able to really defened themsleves against a real animal not that your not a good teacher but your dealing with damaged goods from jumpstreet

Ray:
When you decide to teach then you usually accept all kinds of students not just the rough and tough types who hardly need any training. I don't view my job as training fighters who can handle 250 pound Thai boxers or 300 pound ex-cons or a pack of Hell's angels. That's not going to happen. If I can't handle those things then I can't teach someone else to either. My job is to improve on what the student can already do. My job is to make him or her better in whatever timeframe it takes. Also we are in a peacful city up here, no 1,000 murders like Detroit, Los Angeles and Washington. So people have a different mindset here. When Emin Boztepe was here he beat the hell out of one of his students to impress us and tried to impress us about the reality of fighting but he read the people up here all wrong. No one was impressed. But he was smart and changed tactics totally the third day and then everyone liked him. We weren't aggressive like people in Germany or the USA. Different crowd, different tastes. If I was in jail or in a gang or in a war then I would have a different training attitude for sure.

Ernie:
i had a 90 pound girl tht got raped at gary's school she was a mess an wanted to be able to protect herself told her the truth buy a gun or some mace you will never be able to shut down a 250 pound man real life

Ray:
I make no pretences and also tell them like it is. But if they still want to learn something anyway, then I oblige and teach them.

Ernie:
Taekwondo is a joke so is wushu , tap dancing and ballet when it comes to combat

Ray:
Depends on what Taekwondo guy you meet I guess. To most martial artists Wing Chun is also a joke but it depends on who they meet. It hasn't produced the goods real fighters expect even with more than one million Wing Chun practitioners. Maybe it's record is worse than that of Tai Chi. Maybe You and Terences movement will change all that?

[Ernie]

Ray:
Well from what I have seen in various martial arts schools, good form and position comes first and also fitness. That's not extremist in the slightest but just common sense.

Ernie:
every thing has a natural progression the difference is the honesty of the goal , the sooner you get in front of a person the sooner you face things like distance and timing and adapting to different people , now this can be done early on and during the basic mechanic development stage just can’t put pressure on the yet there not ready keep things light and relaxed , but keep the ‘’goal’’ obvious from the beginning . as there mechanic tighten up the will be developing first hand experience with the tools learning why, when and how . and after all one experience is worth 1000 patternized dead techniques ,
There is a right and a wrong way to train people in a live environment .

Ray:
Maybe for your students who are already fighters and in good condition. There is no way an average non fighter type person can get good mechanics by exposing him to extreme pressure before he can even walk, kick or punch. I have never seen that.

Ernie:
you create experiences that ingrain the worth of the mechanic , they learn to trust in what they do and relate it right away , then when they are doing there solo work there is a immediate purpose not just empty words and theories [ again notice I have not said anything about heavy pressure yet it is developed with time and with safety but the goal is always there to take this person out not to accumulate techniques and become a master of empty non relating motions ]
Only some of the guys I work with are in very good condition the rest need to work on it and yes your right most have fighting experience either wing chun or military or just street , I have the luxury at this time to pick and chose and I wouldn’t even train a out of shape person they would have to get in shape first to prove they were serious and respected themselves , I’m a hard ass that way

Ray:
Yes that's the first step after they have developed some mechanics. You expose them to pressure which doesn't even have to be extreme to see them unable to function. Sometimes it takes 6 months before they can function because it is a new environment.

Ernie:
that’s right maybe longer if there way out of shape , but the goal can be introduced and reinforced very early on , relating and adapting and finding there individual expression , dealing with emotion and learning to relax in front of some one can be introduced early , people spend along time on dead mechanical training then they get to fixed and robotic when they get in front of some one they freeze trying to recreate a drill instead of just flowing and being comfortable

Ray:
Well that's impressive. I suppose. You are a master's master indeed.

Ernie:
now come on Ray you know I don’t believe in masters , there people like anyone else 2 arms and 2 legs , most of the traditional masters can’t even deal with a well set up jab , sure if you fight them in there patarnized way or sit there like a corpse they can pull there game of and stomp you but most traditional systems don’t have simple jab defense or low line kick defense or shoot defense [ I don’t consider Thai or BJJ in that group the can actually fight and there training methods prove that ]
Most masters are pot bellied blowhards living off someone else’s accomplishments , sure there are skilled fighters in all walks of life but the main training methods are not producing that , but there sure can sell and talk it all day

Ray:
I have no problem with that either. The people in jail who can fight , the people in gangs and the bad guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who can fight probably outnumber the boxers too.

Ernie:
most probably box in one way or another =) just gives more natural and faster results again this is life

Ray:
When you decide to teach then you usually accept all kinds of students not just the rough and tough types who hardly need any training. I don't view my job as training fighters who can handle 250 pound Thai boxers or 300 pound ex-cons or a pack of Hell's angels. That's not going to happen. If I can't handle those things then I can't teach someone else to either. My job is to improve on what the student can already do. My job is to make him or her better in whatever timeframe it takes. Also we are in a peaceful city up here, no 1,000 murders like Detroit, Los Angeles and Washington. So people have a different mindset here. When Emin Boztepe was here he beat the hell out of one of his students to impress us and tried to impress us about the reality of fighting but he read the people up here all wrong. No one was impressed. But he was smart and changed tactics totally the third day and then everyone liked him. We weren't aggressive like people in Germany or the USA. Different crowd, different tastes. If I was in jail or in a gang or in a war then I would have a different training attitude for sure.

Ernie:
well live in different worlds sir , here the 250 pound street dude is the guy that will come up and mess with you in the street at the bar anywhere , you just have to be honest with your situation , if this is not happening in your neck of the woods then I am truly happy for you , you are blessed , but I have seen it here all my life so my filter is biased , and when people come to train that is the mental image they are prepping for so conditioning and impact training are a must , just to have some hope of survival or at least be able to run away .
I’m moving to Canada then I can relax =)

Ray:
I make no pretences and also tell them like it is. But if they still want to learn something anyway, then I oblige and teach them.

Ernie: As you should very few people really want to fight even the so called tough guys only want to hit people but don’t like to get hit back ,I know I don’t like to fight or get hit , just happens sometimes

Ray:
Depends on what guy you meet I guess. To most martial artists Wing Chun is also a joke but it depends on who they meet. It hasn't produced the goods real fighters expect even with more than one million Wing Chun practitioners. Maybe its record is worse than that of Tai Chi. Maybe You and Terence’s movement will change all that?
Ernie:
It’s all in the training methods man if there not training on that level it won’t magically appear and that’s my point very few of us are , myself included these days
But traditional systems lack the training methods Taekwondo and mechanical non adaptive arts really lack it , there might be individuals that are talented but the over training system does not produce universal results

Yet people will still talk and theorize and compare fighting that have never fought and probably never will , this is life
If people were honest and spoke with in there personal experience and limitations , or dare I say it , instead of spending so much brain power theorizing about this or that , just went out got in front of the problem and found the answer out for themselves things would be a lot clearer , but as my good friend says that would be to much like right

Ps I have no movement just researching trying to keep my mind on the goal and not get caught up in the fluff