Zhang Zhuan and martial arts...

[Samurai Jack]

Thank you. This information is extremly helpful. I was a dedicated though unfortunately not particularly advanced Hsing-i practitioner before studying Aikido and have often wondered at the similarity between certain Hsing-i and Pa Kua postures and Aikido's postures.

For example Aikido's Tsuki punch is identical to Beng Chuan, Pi Chuan to Shomen Uchi. "Phoenix spreads wings" is identical to tai-no-henka. Also Aikido is based in large part on movements derived from short spear and katana, while Hsing-i uses spear movements.

I've been interested in exploring the possible benifit of standing practice to my Aikido as a result of these interesting similarities. I've even heard that Pa Kua and Aikido may share a common heritage (though there are many sceptics of this theory).

[Zenshiite]

i suggest you pick up a copy of "Warriors of Stillness Vol 2 The Tao of Yi Quan: The Method of Awareness in the Martial Arts" by Jan Diepersloot. Great book.

Peace,
Dawud

[Buddy]

Jack,
No blood, no foul. If you want to do a search I wrote some stuff about basic neigong (including standing) on this board a while back. It may be of some use.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks!

[Joseph_alb]

I really think you should have studied more Xingyi before thinking about those similarities. They really couldnt be more different.

Im sure you were dedicated though. Listen to Buddy, he's the man.

[looking_up]

Ugh...please stop saying that aikido and taiji/xingyi/bagua are the same. Shomen-uchi is NOT pi quan. If you do the standing every day (at least 20 minutes) you will understand.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by looking_up
Ugh...please stop saying that aikido and taiji/xingyi/bagua are the same.

I didn't say they were the same, just similar... eerily similar IMO. I'll keep discussing these similarities for awhile since I find them interesting.

Originally posted by looking_up
Shomen-uchi is NOT pi quan.

I'm open to hearing your opinion. I started another thread to discuss similarities and differences between the arts so as not to divert the topic away from my initial inquiry. Anything you'd like to add to back up your opinion should go there. I'm really interested to hear what you have to say!

Originally posted by looking_up
If you do the standing every day (at least 20 minutes) you will understand.

Really the whole reason I started this thread was to see how others were doing with standing practice, and to get some opinions on it's applicability to actual combat. I HAVE stood for lengthy periods and trained with some very good teachers. It's a shame but I didn't see the value in it because it was so difficult and time consuming and frankly it didn't seem to be providing me with any benifits. I'm still open to the possibility that it has value on the other hand, and am eager to find out what long term practitioners of the method have to say.

Now as someone else pointed out, I suppose I could have been doing EVERYTHING wrong, but if I followed your advice it wouldn't matter. Right or wrong, I'd "know" the value of standing practice, and because my experience indicates it, I'd "know" that standing is a collosal waste of time.

Of course that's absurd. It may not have worked for me, but there're lots of possibilities as to why. If a method has worked for others, then those people should be able to explain it.

[Buddy]

Jack,
As I have mentioned, my experience is that standing builds power. As I also said, I could show you this power quite readily. Also a few of my students, and certainly all my seniors. But you live far away so that's impractical. You already have a number of pointers about standing practice, so my suggestion is that you ask (here and other boards) where you might someone in your area that can show you in person.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks Buddy. I'm planning on swinging down to San Fransisco pretty soon for a George Xu seminar. I'll ask Master Xu what he thinks. Actually, I already know what he'll say, "You just keep standing!", but I'll ask him to check my form anyway.

[Buddy]

I also highly recommend my kung fu brother Bernie Langan just across the bay in Albany CA (just north of Berkeley). He teaches Gao style baguazhang and Pentjak Silat Sera.

[looking_up]

Let's start with this: why was standing so difficult?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Just something i have noticed over the years.. Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person's level of dedication and discipline.. by insisting that we begin each class with at least 5 minutes of standing meditation i have watched many student's dedication and discipline evolve and some deteriorate..

From a personal perspective it is a super inventory of current physical, mental and spiritual status.. one can sense Qi trouble spots, can correct almost imperceptable alignment inconsistencies, can calm scattered thinking, and raise the spirit.. all this while cultivating Qi.. not to mention regulating breath.. in my personal practice i begin with Taiji Diagram training for +/- 5 minutes prior to standing to activate Qi so i can more easily sense its presence and movement..

Much wisdom has been posted regarding the necessity for solid grounding, and standing meditations are excellent disciplines for sensing and developing one's connection with the earth.. internal arts are foundationally dependent upon grounding (rooting) to attain any reasonable level of proficiency or power.. try standing in neck deep water where your grounding is compromised by buoyancy and water applies resistance to every move, remaining grounded during movement is quite difficult (but a good practice).. Dr, Yang Jwing-Ming offers an excellent training tool in his "standing on bricks" routine.. stand bricks on end then do your standing meditations and silk reeling while standing on the bricks.. he says, and my experience agrees, that you learn to project your Qi downward past the bricks to eastblish balance and rooting..

For me, standing meditations are as essential as the form itself.. it is the Wuji that supports Taiji..

Be well..

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

Just something i have noticed over the years.. Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person's level of dedication and discipline.. by insisting that we begin each class with at least 5 minutes of standing meditation i have watched many student's dedication and discipline evolve and some deteriorate..

I agree wholeheartidly with the above, Bob. On the other hand, Five minutes is a far cry from the hour + of practice that was a part of my early practice! Do you think that briefer standing sessions offer similar benifits to longer ones?

One thing that is becoming clear to me as this discussion continues is that people appear to have differing beliefs concerning what is meant by Zhang Zhuan. Witness the next comment.

Originally posted by looking_up
Let's start with this: why was standing so difficult?

I'm tempted to give you the same answer you gave me (i.e. try it and see), but all teasing aside, daily standing for an hour a day can at times be inconvienent, tedious, painful, frustrating, and it takes time from work/play/school/family (did I mention PAINFUL?).

Lets get past this, anyone who has engaged a daily standing practice for at least an hour a day already knows it can be VERY uncomfortable.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Samurai Jack: Due to time constraints at the school i only ask for 5 min. to show them the "potential", and i counsel them to make standing meditation a part of their daily training.. in my personal practice it ranges from 20 to 40 minutes.. yes, it can be painful.. that is your body signaling areas of concern: blockages; or inconsistencies in alignment, thought or spirit; or poor technique..

I think 20 minutes is minimum to receive real benefits or to make real progress.. i think 40 minutes is maximum due to micro-tears in muscles that become minutely atrophyed, and betond 40 minutes you enter into a meditative state that is somewhat counterproductive to Qi cultivation and manipulation.. i have stood for times in excess of an hour, but find it draining and remarkably difficult to focus on my intent and difficult to exit the meditation without "post-partum" blues.. hence my favor with 20-40 minutes..

One of the miracles of standing meditation is the unfolding awareness of the symphony of processes within the human body.. after a while one can feel/sense many previously unperceived events in the body.. ie: organ functions, blood flow, food processing, etc... then, at some point hopefully, we sense the subtle hum of pure energy (bio-electrical energy/Qi)..

Be well..

[Buddy]

First I will shock the world by agreeing with Bob...at least for the most part. Personally I think 20-30 minutes is optimal. Longer and you end up fighting yourself for diminishing returns.

"Wuji or Zhang Zhuan is a pretty good indicator of a person's level of dedication and discipline.. "

Zhang Zhuan is a generic term and does not refer to a specific posture. I think you mean, by the term Wuji, a parallel stance with or without the arms in an embracing posture. WHile I agree this is a good beginning stance and one perfectly reasonable one for health improvement, a stance with the weight distributed uneveny (I prefer 100/0, but as well 70/30, 80/20, etc.) to better for developing power for fighting. Santi is great.


"in my personal practice i begin with Taiji Diagram training for +/- 5 minutes prior to standing to activate Qi so i can more easily sense its presence and movement.."

Do you mean as described in Jou's book? If so the chanszjin exercises from Chen style or the luoxuanjin exercises we have in baguazhang are far superior.

"Dr, Yang Jwing-Ming offers an excellent training tool in his "standing on bricks" routine.. stand bricks on end then do your standing meditations and silk reeling while standing on the bricks.. he says, and my experience agrees, that you learn to project your Qi downward past the bricks to eastblish balance and rooting.."


While I don't intend this to reflect on you or your experiences, I disagree. Standing on the ground is far more productive. Dr Yang is, I have heard, an adept at Bai He. His Taiji is abyssmal. I've seen him and his students countless times over the years and they have no concept of internal shenfa.

When I was teaching a lot of standing even raw beginners would stand for ten minutes, no less. That will evoke a strong response. Re: pain, it's temporary, although a bitc,h. If after a few months you can stand for 20-40 minutes and you still fell pain, you're doing it wrong. You're simply not being taught how to properly relax the body/mind. There are distinct phases one goes through in learning standing and almost everyone I have taught has very similar symptoms. If you learn how to progressively relax, the pain will disappear.