Zhang Zhuan and martial arts...

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by Buddy
Re: pain, it's temporary, although a bitc,h. If after a few months you can stand for 20-40 minutes and you still fell pain, you're doing it wrong. You're simply not being taught how to properly relax the body/mind.

I suspected as much. Unfortunately it has been extremly difficult to find a teacher skilled enough to point me in the right direction. So much dilution, so many willing to claim mastery after learning a form...

I'd still be doing IMA if top quality teachers were available in my area. As it turned, I went with the only truly good teacher I could find, and he happens to be an Aikidoka.

[Walter Joyce]

FWIW

Mike Sigman was also led to internal arts through his experience with akido.

While Mike is more than capable of expressing his own views, my understanding is that aikido, as he was exposed to it (Mike has a habit of pursuing things in depth) wasn't enough.

Mike is a strong advocate for chen taiji, and has spent close to a decade or more exploring what neijia arts are about and trying to communicate that.

While there may be surface similarities between aikido and neijia arts the degree to which the dantien is developed in chen taiji as the center of all movement is far more intricate than the admonishment to "work from the center" that so many arts advocate, both internal and external.

Mike's view, as I understand it (and I agree) is that many arts have similar reminders about whole body power and moving from the center, but that the question that separates the chinese internals is how you achieve those goals.

The specific qigong and neigong exercises associated with the chinese internals develop a sense of connectivity that is one of the foundations, the use of the dantien is another, and the specific methods of the big three (xing I, taiji, and ba gua) are what give the special flavor, or characteristics of the power generation of each.

An intellectual understanding will only go so far, it is the actual practice that will give you the understanding.


As an aside, after years of training in a variety of disciplines, my advice is to ignore the external similarities of movement. There are only so many ways the human body can move as discernible by the eye (even the trained eye) and fighting arts in general share similar external movements.

What separates the diffferent arts for the most part, is how they develop power, and the startegies they apply in fighting. While there may be some overlap, there are specific practices, many of which are rejected by some as having nothing to do with fighting, that will develop the power that is the hallmark of internalists. It has to be felt, but once you have the differnce becomes amazingly clear.

Peace

[Buddy]

Jack,
I recommend BK Frantzis' book "Opening the Energy Gates of the Body" as an excellant intro to neigong. I learned from him for many years and found this method effective. If you try and have questions, I would be happy to address them here or by email. I prefer here so others may benefit but it's up to you. BTW good to see the "Lohan Lawyer" back in the fray.

[looking_up]

Consider yourself lucky to receive advice from Walter and Buddy. I'm at a point where I can see why many practitioners just stop talking about their practice. Buddy continues to share and it is generous of him to do so.

I'll bow out because our discussion is going nowhere and you'll get better advice from the veterans. The only things I'll suggest are to find the right teacher and to always keep relaxation in mind when standing.

Good luck.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

a stance with the weight distributed uneveny (I prefer 100/0, but as well 70/30, 80/20, etc.) to better for developing power for fighting. Santi is great.

Absolutely, and the Qi cultivation is noticably increased..

Do you mean as described in Jou's book? If so the chanszjin exercises from Chen style or the luoxuanjin exercises we have in baguazhang are far superior.

The Taiji diagram exercises are similar to Jou Tsung Hua's, but i intend it just to lightly activate the Qi.. i favor Chen style Chan si jin in lower stances for serious internal development..

While I don't intend this to reflect on you or your experiences, I disagree. Standing on the ground is far more productive. Dr Yang is, I have heard, an adept at Bai He. His Taiji is abyssmal. I've seen him and his students countless times over the years and they have no concept of internal shenfa

I have trained and pushed with Dr. Yang and found his internal knowledge and prowess to be greatly superior to his external expressions of forms.. (i do not favor his forms).. he is similar to WCC Chen (whom i've pushed with as well) in effectiveness, but they approach internal sparring a little differently.. Dr. Yang's Qinna is quite developed and effective.. the brick suggestion is not intended to be a main training device, just a method of exploring "connections"..

One day a week, outside regularly scheduled classes, we have an informal gathering to work on specific areas of interest (Qinna, weapons, meditation, pushing, etc) or concern.. this may be 2-4 hours.. where i often suggest, a good 30 minute standing meditation, but.. i do not force that regimen, i only counsel the student regarding the limitations a lack of standing meditation imposes on their progress.. Perhaps someone can assist me, here.. it seems that group standing meditation for lengthy periods don't work well in my experience.. i sense that conflicting energies and conflicting levels of expertise distract the students at some level i cannot manage.. perhaps the proximity to others working at differing issues adds an overall element of chaos to the experience.. i don't know, just fishing and going on intuition..

Thanks, Buddy.. (humble bows)..

Be well..

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi there - just wanted your take on what I do at the moment, and how it might be improved.

I train 6 postures, but all in 50/50 - i dont move my feet once I've started, just change the height and facing of my hands. I tend to work to breaths rather than minutes - 13 breaths per posture works out at about 12-15 minutes standing time. I have been taking the postures deeper over time, rather than doing them for longer.

So, my questions:
1) is time more valuable than depth for Standing Post?
2) if working 80/20, what postures are best? (describe them physically please - e.g. left mountain climbing stance, left hand at ward off, right hand palm down around the hip (brush knee basically)
3) I tend to only get pain in my thighs which I take to be tension as I can relax out of the pain - should I be changing to a different posture at this point?
4) is it ok to mix different weightings during one session?
5) are silk-reeling exercises of equal efficacy for root in your opinion?

[Buddy]

Ok I'll give it a shot. Remember I'm a bagua guy not a taiji guy but in my opinion these styles along with xingyi share a basic body method.

"So, my questions:
1) is time more valuable than depth for Standing Post?"

Yes. Standing is more than just leg strengthening. It is excellant for that but reread Bobs post about all the other things it develops. My expereince is that the heavy rooting effect it produces is just the beginning stage. Formerly my neijin was heavy as I 'bounced' my power off my root. Now it all mostly comes from the yao/kua (waist, lumbar, inguinal area) and the power is much more crisp and penetrating.


2) if working 80/20, what postures are best? (describe them physically please - e.g. left mountain climbing stance, left hand at ward off, right hand palm down around the hip (brush knee basically)


Because I also practice xingyi (it's a part of Yizong bagua) I favor Santi. This is a back weighted posture with the lead hand at at about mouth height palm forward arm bent at about 120 degree angle with the elbow rotated downward pointing to the ground (luoxuanjin). The rear hand is in approximately the same posture in front of the navel.

3) I tend to only get pain in my thighs which I take to be tension as I can relax out of the pain - should I be changing to a different posture at this point?

Sure, or just keep relaxing/expanding. This is an ongong process (yin ceasingly changing to yang).

4) is it ok to mix different weightings during one session?

Why not?

5) are silk-reeling exercises of equal efficacy for root in your opinion?

Different animals. Silk reeling is all about how to use whole body power centered on the hips amd waist.
Buddy

[Ray Pina]

"I can see why many practitioners just stop talking about their practice."

Actually, I've yet to find any martial artist -- internal of otherwise -- who won't shut up if you play a little stupid and interested.

Truth be told, you won't learn what you want from being here. Even if someone here has proven they know what they are doing, AND have made it work for them in both health AND* combat, how are you to learn it over the net or through a book?

Find yourself a good teacher. You'll know when you do. Just be honest with yourself.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Yes, let's be honest.. i have no intention of "teaching" here.. i share insights in hopes of learning how others gained their insights.. and, maybe one or two of my insights may be helpful in pointing others toward a useful experience.. Cripe, it's a passionate addiction, i enjoy dialoguing with others on this subject.. i enjoy even the contentious exchanges, it helps me manage emotions and hone my conflict management skills.. this forum is no substitute for a teacher, but it may help someone discern a knowledgable teacher from a BS artist..

The forum should be a happy place where we can share and gain insights, get some training tips and discuss theories, etc.. not the playground of poorly intended egos and trolls.. but, it is what it is and it beats many other similar venues..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

Taichi Bob, my post was not directed at your or anyone in particular -- I enjoy your posts.

I think it was directed at us as a collective, to remind us that it is a never ending practice. I would venture very few of us are "experts" or have achieved a level we are comfortable with. At least I haven't.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Equally so, EF.. but, i agreed with your premise of honesty.. and, i thought it prudent to state my position.. as much for my own sake as anyone else's.. <respectful bows>

Be well..

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks a lot Buddy and Bob - info much appreciated

[Kaitain(UK)]

Bob - regarding group Standing Post: I find it lacks any benefit for anyone bar beginners due to the varied times that people need to work to to gain benefit. I do a short 5 minute session at the start of a lesson followed by about 10 minutes of silk-reeling exercises (some Chen, some CMC that I picked up).

I find I have taken the same approach as you with students - I explain why it is important to maintain the practice. Usually I tell them about my own experiences - I stopped standing post for a long period, believing that the form was sufficient in itself to build root and strength. Over time my form deteriorated to the point that I became very frustrated - I went and spoke to my instructor who said he'd been waiting for me to come to him. He told me I wasn't going to like it but the only way to improve and have something worthwhile was to work on my ZhangZhong. As soon as I started training that again, my form was fine.

I tried working a much higher posture today and did about 25 minutes (4 minutes per posture) - it is noticeably different to what I have been doing. I get the shaking but without any discomfort, and I also find myself able to work on my breathing more and feel more of what is going on. With the standing post my instructor gets me to do, it is a battle of endurance. Upon consideration i think that's because I have been going too deeply without guidance (I havent trained zhangzhong in front of him in years) - I guess he works that deeply because he has built up to it over many years. I'll have a chat with him next time I'm in for a lesson.

I'm going to run with the higher posture (I'm going to stick with 50/50 for now) for a few months and see how it goes.

[qiphlow]

my 2 pence:
standing has helped me to connnect my body, thus putting me on the path to MUCH better rooting than before i started standing. it has also helped me calm the mind, so i don't forget my forms when i have been lazy to practice. it has helped my push hands immensely--my listening/sticking/following is WAY better these days. i think that with daily practice, one would eventually develop a high degree of sensitivity to touch and of touch. on a general note, i've done the sporadic standing bit, and the dedicated standing bit, and i have to say that in addition to the benefit to my taijiquan, i notice that my entire life is more enhanced with standing--less stress, more energy, better mood overall. my routine for the past 4-4 1/2 years has been 25-40 min/day, unless i'm REALLY tired or i'm sick.
my strong opinion is that one gets more benefit with regular practice: 10 min/day is preferable to 60 min once per week...
i was taught not to change posture during the session, although i have heard of that approach. as far as depth of stance, i like to start high in my stance--i tend to sink as the session progresses.
keep at it--you'll see results with time. remember that the internal work takes years!

[cam]

I was wondering how the other styles of taijiquan view standing. In chen style it seems to be a cornerstone of the training and I find it to be most useful.
Correct posture, rooting and just learning how to relax(loosen, lenghten) the body. I've been practicing wuji steady for the last year and a half, up to 30 minutes a day and I still find it challenging, always feeling little tensions in my lower back and hips but it has helped.